I would like to thank the Yeshiva World News once again for providing me with fodder for yet another post that shows that Charedim are getting way out of hand when it comes to their chumras. Yeshiva World News the following article on their website:(link to article) HaGaon Rav Nissim Karelitz Shlita has released a unique p’sak halacha pertaining to the mitzvah of ‘hashovas aveida’ and non-kosher cellular telephones, Ladaat.net reports. According to the report, if one discovers a non-kosher cell phone and knows who the owner is, and knows for a fact or has a reason to suspect the owner uses the phone for prohibited access, one is not compelled to fulfill the mitzvah of ‘hashovas aveida’. The p’sak in the Rav’s sefer also states if one does not know who the owner is and the cell phone is not the ‘kosher phone’ with rabbinical approval, one is not compelled to try to locate the owner.
I wonder if the Rav paid Yeshiva World News to post this article because that is great marketing. Think about it, this guy makes some crazy BS p’sak up and knows people will get their panties in a bunch about it, even makes me want to get a copy of the sefer to see what other craziness he has proposed.
Here are some other things that can be derived from this p’sak:
If you find someone’s wallet on the ground and know that they use the money for non-kosher activities you should not return it.
If you find someone’s car keys you may not return them if they use the car for bad things.
If you find bags of groceries left in the store you may not return them unless all the hechsherim are mehandrin.
You may not return anything to anyone because their is potential for unkosher activities and therefore we are seeking to ban the mitzvah of returning lost objects.
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{ 42 comments… read them below or add one }
Why o earth would a Rav spend his time creating such narishkeit when Am Yisroel is on the verge on becoming exstinct by an iranian madmad, or even worse, by their own broygezes? Instead of fixing the problem of our differences, this is simply adding to it.
It seems that rebbeim like to do things bass akwards. There is already a concept in halacha that “Ayn Shliach Li’Dvar Aveira”; “There Is No Messenger For Sin”. Meaning, that if you told someone to go rob a store, he didn’t do it in your name; he did it in his. You might have made a Chillul Hashem for pushing him to do it in the first place, but HE ROBBED THE BANK, NOT YOU. Ergo, if you give someone back their lost phone or wallet, even if you know that they do bad things with them, you cannot make that judgment call; For all you know, he might give tzedaka from that wallet, a mitzva worth returning a lost wallet or, or he might be the decisive person who calls 9-1-1, or even makes a call to cheer up a sick person(if it’s not actual bikkur cholim, it certainly counts towards your chesed points). What could be better than enabling a person to do mitzvot? i say to hell with the p’sak, and return every lost article you can! Hell, lose your stuff on purpose, and give *other**people* the chance to do Hashavat Aveida! Poskim like that make me want to hurl.
I don’t see how a phone can be Kosher or not Kosher. Last I checked, we don’t eat phones! It’s noone’s business what someone does with their personal objects unless it’s an issue of safety. Otherwise, if one finds something that belongs to someone else, it’s an important Mitzvah to return it. You can’t take Yeshiva World News seriously – the people on there are crazy to the thousandth power!
How is this any more absurd than the Torah proscribing the death penalty for an adultress or breaking shabbos? Please explain.
Common now, you expect the Chumrah of the week folks to care about what some Rabbis who are not in the community said? So what if it IS an ancient Halachic concept, the new law is backdated to eternity…
omg this would be fun if it weren’t for real. now its just sad.
I blogged about this yesterday. This is crazy when halachos start getting redefined to fit in with a crazy chumrah. What about returning a wallet with a credit card inside it, maybe the guy will use the credit card to get into a strip joint?? The only rational explination is that it is purim torah…ha ha get it????
Hesh,
I’m starting to think that your competitors (Yeshiva World and VIN) have caught on to the whole frum satire thing and starting to copy your style. First the spoof ban on Esther, now this. Are you ghostwriting for them?
i think you’re on to something phil…..
I feel bad laughing at this, since Rav Nissim Karelitz is really an important and learned man… But I’m still laughing anyway. My friends would tell me that I should say “I don’t understand this” rather than laugh, but they’re not here, so what the hey.
Should we not return lost laptops because they may have porn?
Should we not return apt/house keys to someone, because they may use their home for sin?
Should we not return a lost pair of jeans because they are not “tznius” enough? …
If you know that the lost object will be used for an aveirah then how is it not an issue of “Lifnei iver lo ti’tain michshol?” “Ayn shaliach l’dvar aveira” wouldn’t really be relevant here. And besides, unless I’m mistaken, the gemara which discusses that topic says that Reuven who pushed Shimon to do an aveira is still chayav bidei shamayim. That may not mean much to some people, but being judged in Shamayim for an aveira doesn’t sound like fun.
I can understand why people from certain communities would find this “chumra” to sound a bit silly at first, but if you think about, it is not a ridiculous as some would perceive it. The Torah tells us that all Jews are responsible for each other; how can you hand another a Jew a weapon with which you know he will damage his own soul, and thereby damage your own?
Anon,
Nope, a rabbi came up with the, “all Jews are responsible for each other.” They are re-writing the TORAH. Not returning a lost object is de oraisah. It’s that simple. A rabbi can’t overule Hashem. The Schtus!
The drought has ended, almost a full year without any new bans, I expect a nice wave of bans to come flowing in now.
if you found someones business computer (like it was stolen and somehow you found it, but it did not have the proper kosher filter on it when you fired it up to perhaps locate owner contact info, but it contained someones business records etc and thus his or her livelihood on it would you return it? i hope so, as a cell phone could conceivably contain someones parnossa database on it as well.
Phil this one was actually serious.
Honestlyfrum – I thought strip clubs only take single dollar bills
Hesh,
I just don’t buy it. It goes against halacha, anyone that tells you otherwise is simply a jackass. Probably the same rabbi that decided stoning people on Shabbos is a mitzva.
YWN likes posting this sort of garbage, just another way for them to keep heated debates going, which translate into massive banner impressions for their advertisers. Smart business stategy, controversy sells.
Hanna Heller, you said “”It’s noone’s business what someone does with their personal objects unless it’s an issue of safety.”"
Now i am really not a fan of this ban, and honestly it doesnt make any sense to me, but i didnt see the tshuva inside. He might have a mekor (root cause) for his psak (ruling) from some very reliable sources as the Rambam and Shulchan Urech. I dont know.
But that comment is exactly the problem with todays conception of judiasm, as it pertains to right in wrong. The Torah NEVER said “shoftim v’shotrim titain l’cho b’chol sh’urecha” (You shall place Judges and magistrates in all your towns) only to make sure no hurts another. That is not what the Torah says. That is liberal hogwash.
No, as a yid it is our business what another yid does, even if he isnt hurting another person. Not me to decide and you to decide. Its what the torah says. No excuses (if you want to follow the torah’s path.)
The Torah’s morality is not the misconstued twisted morality of our times. Dont try try squeezing your pre-conceived notions of morality into the Torah.
Just so everyone is clear, the pask as stated above is when one knows that the owner of the lost object uses it for an aveira. So Smooth Shemp, just because someone doesn’t have a kosher filter on their computer by no means is grounds to say they use it for an aveira- hence not a good argument for this being a crazy psak.
And Michal bas Avraham, how can you say that Jews being responsible for each other is something that some rabbi made up?! “Haniglot lanu u’lvaneinu ad olam la’asot et kol divrei haTorah hazot.”- Nitzavim 29:28. Look up Rashi and the Ramban there. I don’t understand what you mean by what you said. It is only derabanan to care about other Jews?
As stated in the previous comment by Critic, this psak can have completely legitimate grounds in halachic sources. What are all of you basing your negative reactions on? Your knowledge of halacha? Your understanding of the poskim on the matter? Or simply the reaction which has been adjusted to aline with the morals and ideas of the society you live in, despite what a legitimate Torah source might say?
Foist eval, i wish to tank all the groise talmidei chachamim fun lakevood fer showing ap here to straighten out deese yokels und schmendriks vat tink day ken leff et arr zisse tyere haloches.
nuchmer, i vud like to point out zet ze toiyreh is not yours to pasken however you wish.. only der goon, moron malkiel kotler shlite, is smart enuf to say what all ze meforshim say in deese kamplekated tings. For me, if ze goon says no hashovas avayrah, zen i dont give – zet iz all
There are a lot of yidden whose parnosse hinges on the Kosher cellphone market. we paid these rabbonim good money so that the seriousness of the dangers of trayf cellphones do not go underestimated, these rabbonim (and we) are looking out only for the good of klal yisrael. so that avinu shebashamayim does not get angry and visit another hollekust because we sinned with the textings of text
Hanna Heller, you said “”It’s noone’s business what someone does with their personal objects unless it’s an issue of safety.””
I don’t understand some of you. I’m not from lakewood. I’m not chareidi. I’m not even 18. I go to a “modern orthodox” high school. I wear a kippa sruga and I certainly don’t wear white shirts every day. Yet, I managed to write two posts defending this chumra. I can’t believe some of the stuff you guys are writing. How can some of you be so narrow-minded. If you are going to bash something you probbaly didn’t even research, at least give a halachic-based argument! Why do so many of you just say terrrible things which aren’t based on anything but negative feelings towards poskim and chareidim? Some of the posts here just mamash don’t make sense?
“It’s noone’s business what someone does with their personal objects unless it’s an issue of safety.”- cleary you don’t give any credit to spiritual safety. If a Jew loses his idol, are you required to return it to him?? (hint: no, and if you warn him with two eidim but you still see him use it for an aveira he gets killed. But wait, how did that little idol hurt anyone?!) If a Jew is handing out Jews for J. pamphlets and you see him drop some by accident and walk away, shouldn’t you return them? NO, YOU ARE REQUIRED TO BURN THEM! But those aren’t physically hurting anyone either. Funny that.
How is anyone to “know” all that about another person, unless their guilty of such “sins” as well? Hmmm………. tisk tisk tiskkkkkk
Some things to put out there….
So let me get this straight… it is now rabbinical prohibited to fulfill a mitzvah that is d’oritha? Now I want (really I don’t want) to see a rabbinical commandment to violate a prohibition.
14) I was just going to post that!
If one suspects that the object may be used for a forbid act? What happened to judging your fellow for the good? Now do we need to look around and think…. O o he isn’t wearing some obscure nojewish garment from Europe he must not be religious??!?!?! Give me a break!
If I remember correctly it is forbidden to steal even from a rahsa. The only time that it is permitted to not return something is if it beneath your dignity to do so (Ie: carry a jackass through the streets if you’re a leader of the community etc). But for those who accept welfare and charity so they can not work I consider to be the lowest social class and as such nothing is beyond their dignity in my book.
Hey Mr. Double M, did you know that the Rabanan were given the power by Hashem (it’s in the Torah- “Lo tasur”) to understand and explain as well as protect the mitzvot de’oraita. I suppose you would say that the gemara in brachot where we learn that m’deroaita you are allowed to recite Kriat Shema at night until daybreak, but m’darabanan we only have until chatzot is heretical to Judaism as well? Did you know that m’deoraita you can marry as many women as you want, but Rabbeinu Gershom enacted that we can only marry one woman now. Everyone follows this today- what a corrupt, power hungry rav he was to do this to Bnei Yisrael (chas v’shalom)! I wonder if some of you realize that you sound like Kara’im- people that follow only the literal meaning of the text of the Torah and ignore the Torah she’Baal Peh.
BTW, I really don’t intend to insult anyone c”v, I just want make sure everything is understood by both sides here.
And funny you should mention wearing a non-Jewish garment from Europe. Could it be a possible issur of Chukat HaGoyim?
Plus think about it this way: Look at the community these poskim are poskening for (So get off their backs because it doesn’t even affect you), these are usually people who go at things a little more intensely when it comes to things like this. Perhaps in that sort of community, if a person has such a phone it is much more likely that they are using it for an aveira? Any thoughts on that?
Hay Anon… o heck… Ploney.
1) Not to create a fence that forbids performing mtizvot. If you have a d’rabanan prohibition and a doritah mitzvah you do the mitzvah… if you have a doritah prohibition and mitzvah doritah in certain times you do the mitzvah against the prohibition?
2) If you see the obligation still stands until daybreak the rabbanim basically said do it early so you do not forget but lechatchelah do it if you forgot. Go back and learn that section again.
3) Correction your rabbanim said that… this prohibition did not extend the rest of the world.
4) If you feel that we are ignoring the oral tradition why is it I use the oral tradition to refute you in the first point?
5) I do not wish to put people wearing bekashas as violating that prohibition. I see it as wearing something that fit the cold climates and fashion of that time and place.
6) It does as once you get a ban in one place you see others think… “hay why didn’t I think of it” or “it worked so well there why not apply it to everyone.”
Sorry little tired
1) should not end with ?
2) should be bitavahd… its late here
As you said I have no intention of embarrassing you so please do not be offended.
Just pound on you a bit more Ploney in posts:
11) you mentioned that returning an object that you know has been (will be is imposable as we do not have n’vuah today) used in a prohibited act. Have you heard that if a person marries a woman “on condition that he is a tzadik” he is considered married as the thought might have crossed his mind to repent. So do the thing required of you and judge him favorably (this applies unless is a rasha… but how many people go around trying to violate laws to “upset” G-d?)
To answer your rhetorical question: how can I give you a piece of bread you might not say the proper brachot! There was a case where R’ Yehudah HaNassei decided to sustain the learned people with food during a famine (because it may be misused by those who are not learned people… we are using a low threshold for learned here). A certain rav who did not wish to show the world how much torah he knew refused to answer any questions when tested and was refused food. He told them sustain “sustain me as you would a crow or a dog” (I think it was dog or donkey forgot the 2 animals that had relations during the mabul and yet was kept alive and given food even though they may continue to transgress). Hearing this argument R’ Yehudah HaNassei changed his mind and opened up the food stores for everyone even the ignorant.
The person might sin and he might not but your responsibility is to teach him and lead him not control him as you would a donkey!
18) That opening sounds like someone calling into Rush’s show saying “I have been a republican all my life but I just had to vote for Obama because XYZ and we should release the terrorists”
Also there is a line about not returning items beneath your dignity. I believe an object whose very essence is filth qualifies. Same argument can not be made about computers or phones so do not even try to make such nonsense.
This was done in the sprit of an open and free dialog and a scrutinizing of the truth.
Please forgive the multi posts last one this evening unless Ploney respons.
O I just forgot! The perfect rebuttal to this law! Remember when a certain king of Israel refused to marry and have kids because he know his kid would be an evil man and cause all sorts of trouble for the Jewish nation and result in all kinds of transgressions? What was he told… to get married and not concern him with what was beyond his mitzvah. Due to the late hour I can not dredge the name and exact scenario out but I think I provided the proof the guts the ban regardless of what sources it was based on.
If the rabbis have the ultimate power where are the checks and balances – I dont like it one bit.
That’s why I’m a heretic and a blasphemer according to some of the local Haredi. I believe that G-d is more important than rabbis. Given a choice between “an oral tradition” or tribal custom and the direct commandment of the Almighty I’ll go with the Big Guy.
When I have to stand before the Ultimate Reality there are basically two choices. I can say “I did my best but sometimes failed. I take responsibility for the evil I did and throw myself on Your mercy.”
Or I can say “I did what those men over there told me. If You have any questions, take it up with them. They claim their orders supersede Yours.”
I’ll take my chances with the first one, thenkyew verymuch.
we need checks and balances against god… she is perfectly fallible you know… thats why we have rabbis — to keep god in check, but who keeps the rabbis in check? hahaha
Double M, your referring to the case of Chizkiyahu Hamelech and Yehsyahu Hanavi, but it may not be so simple to bring a proof from what a Navi said to a specific person in a specific case like that.
Shiksa: What with the “She?”
Rabbis do have checks, what they say has to be based on the Torah. Are you saying that every time you don’t agree with something rav (at least the greater rabbanim/poskim, not necessarily your “local orthodox rav”) it’s not possible that there is a lack of understanding on your part? Are you completely sure that this shita is not based on reliable Torah sources and that after going through the sugya yourslef, or after asking someone competent who has, you have concluded that this Rav must be wrong?
I don’t necessarily hold by this shita, I don’t live in the type of community where the kosher phone thing is an issue, but that doesn’t mean I can’t hold it to have validity. I especially can’t just shoot it down because I don’t like it, not based on any halachically decisive grounds. You should make sure that you understand what you are arguing against, people tend to forget that. And you should certainly make sure you know what you are arguing for on your side! I know a rav who is anti-zionist, and many people would call him a bad person just for that even though it’s 100% as kosher as being zionist. But you know, he is an intellectual person who looks at multiple sides of an issue and understands the issue through multiple valid viewpoints. He can explain why you should be zionist better than most of the people who would attack him for being anti-zionist. Most of you here are just ranting on about your issues with rabbis and chareidim, a lot of which I have to say seems to not come from anything good.
Nuran, what are you saying? I don’t understand your view. When do you draw the line and say that something is just “an oral tradition” that conflicts with “the direct commandment from the Almighty?” How are you so sure that they are conflicting in whatever case you have a problem with? How do you research everything to make sure that you are somehow right and that the learned people who do have an idea of what they are talking about are somehow wrong when they go along with these things (btw, some might not and argue with a halachic-based argument)? If all the Rabbis and the poskim and talmidei chachamim are just corrupt power hungry villians like all of you seem to imply…I just don’t understand what you think Judaism is then. I certainly don’t understand how you have such a warped perception of these people being bad. I usually find it to be the opposite; a lot of my rebbeim tend to be more kind, humble, and understanding than a lot of other people I know that have the same kind of views as a lot of you.
1) I have been shooting holes in the argument for this ban…. How about trying to defend it? Don’t just say some vague thing of well it might not be applicable. What about the other countless holes that I have punched in it.
2) We have seen countless times through history where people made judgments that contradicted halacha and that they thought they were doing the right thing but were criticized as making the wrong decision; when you look back the average person thinks… what where they thinking, how could they do such a thing… but they had their own cheshbon on why there were doing something that was incorrect
3) So you propose that because someone has spent time studying somewhere that they are infallible? There are certain places that are attacked because they teach their students to find new chidushem when they do not understand what already exists! Not saying any particular place but C’OY is really big on this issue that it should be fixed.
4) Have you ever asked yourself why such things are being suggested currently? Why not 100 years ago… 200y 500y? You might have… but the end result is that people realized that the opinion was incorrect and effectively buried it in the lost and almost forgotten history of ideas.
There is nothing wrong with being incorrect as it is a logical argument that is being used but when you stop using logic and start attacking on feelings or defending on feelings then things become meaningless
1) I do not c”v claim to be able to defend this ban to the extent that I will prove you wrong. I have not seen it inside. I’m am simply a reaction to the many negative and non-conducive comments posted in response, most of which I find to be not proper responses to this sort of thing. The same goes for you. You have brought raayas as have I, but nothing at all to constitute a psak. And it’s not vague, theres a machloket whether we learn halachah from Neviim.
2) Someone might have a good cheshbon, and you can’t criticize someone for thinking, but if it’s incorrect it shouldn’t be applied to halachah.
3) C”V I don’t think someone is infallible just because they learned somewhere! But if a rav went to yeshiva, learned in kollel for a few years under learned roshei yeshiva, and has been giving a high level shiur for a few years, he has a heck of a lot more credit and expertise than any baal habat (it’s more likely that he’s right than the average guys in shul). Not doesn’t even include the Gedolei Hador of recent past and present: R’ Yaakov Yisrael Kanievsky, R’ Moshe Feinstein, R’ Chaim Kanievsky, R’ Elyashiv, R’ Shlomo Zalman Aurbach, R’ Ovadiah Yosef, R’ Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg…. The lives these Rabanim led/lead are unimaginable. They have so much devotion and are men of such genius. Yet people give them no credit. Some think that they they are power crazed leaders bound by no rules. Their entire being Torah. Yet some people think can come along and oppose them on a whim. In the “modern orthodox” this is a huge issue. Usually things that have to do with boys and girls, like being shomer negiah, are touchy issues because people don’t want to hear it. R’ Moshe holds that shaking a woman’s hand is assur. So many people would just explode at that for no apparent good reason. The fact that his entire life was devoted to Torah and halachah in a way that surpassed all but those on the same caibur as him becomes irrelevant. Other poskim hold that it is not assur, but that’s not what’s going through a lot of people’s mind.
When I ask my Rebbe a question, he’ll bring up poskim, gemaras, experiences… When I ask the type of person who doesn’t like rabbis, who thinks black hatters are bad people… i usually get a response based on feelings, and those feeling are usually negative. But not based on Torah so much.
It is true that you cannot start making logical arguments for things when you don’t understand what the logic is based on. Maybe you can coem up with a logic based on a pasuk you remember from learning the parshah, but you can’t apply it to halachah if you don’t know what the Bach and the Taz say.
“If all the Rabbis and the poskim and talmidei chachamim are just corrupt power hungry villians like all of you seem to imply…I just don’t understand what you think Judaism is then.”
“…R’ Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg…. The lives these Rabanim led/lead are unimaginable. They have so much devotion and are men of such genius. Yet people give them no credit. Some think that they they are power crazed leaders bound by no rules. Their entire being Torah. Yet some people think can come along and oppose them on a whim.”
you mean the senile ‘gadol’ who flew in to threaten people not to talk about Kolko saying that without penetration there is no halacha broken so people were not allowed to say anything because it would be mesira, motzi shem ra etc…
I don’t know if you are following the recent attempts on Nuchem Rosenberg’s life for mesira, and his subsequent withdrawl from his praiseworthy activities, but I would say that U.O. Judaism is a grand conspiracy to molest children
see for example:
http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/clergyabuse.html#Clergy%20Abuse
and they don’t want you to have cell phones because you may C”V call Child Protective Services or Nuchem Rosenberg’s hot-line
You kind of sidestepped the raised issue, attacked a specific posek, and brought up a new massive issue of molesting and abuse.
Anyway, I probably don’t know anywhere near enough about it to get into this with you here, so sorry.
It is certainly a terrible things what some of these molesters are doing; the Torah clearly calls it an abomination. But these people are not rabbanim who are Torah scholars, they have stepped out of that reality into something antithetical to Judaism. It’s a really terrible thing. But I don’t know what all the poskim are saying, and you are bringing up something from R’ Scheinberg I have not heard. Although I know that you would be sorely mistaken and ignorant to think that that is the opinion of all Rabbanim and poskim. And you know, this may come as a shock to you, but unfortunately there are child molesters in other communities of other social standings other than these chareidi/yeshivish rabbis you are focusing in on. It’s not an isolated problem that has simply to do with the mentality of corrupted rabbis.
Pretend I didn’t list R’ Scheinberg in the previous post. What other problems do you then have?
I think that most people here if not all will take issue with a ruling that may cause harm to them event thought it is not their rav and they themselves are not held to the root (ie the ban on phones that are not edible) that causes them damage when their own rav’s ruling permits using an inedible phone.
**this is not a comparison between the ruling and this example as a way of commentary I just wanted a clear cut case that one will not argue on**
Think if you are permitted to use something like o say a car… and someone comes up with a ruling saying… if you see an unattended car you must slash the tires because someone (you know the someone he is represented as .1^-? percent of the population) might use it for an unkasher rendezvous. This ruling is applicable to the rav and his community but causes damage to people following halacha as it is understood by the standard deviation of 5 from the average person who is not bound by the controversial rav’s ruling.
There is the essence of the argument in my opinion which draws the lines rather nicely in the two sides.
It is now tax season’s time to take up my life. I hope you had fun with our back and forth… until next thread.
It was very enjoyable…have fun with tax season
Choshen Mishpat 266:2 says that one is not obligated to return what a heretic has lost.
So… this Rabbi isn’t making it all up.
By “heretic”, it means someone who was previously a believer, but who has rejected the Jewish faith.
So that’s where little me disagrees with the Rabbi. Not everyone who has a cellphone is doing pritzus with it.
I guess that’s where the “has reason to believe” part comes in. But how would you know? Start looking for pictures? Explicit text messeges?
Y’know… I have no idea how someone would get prizus on their cell phone.
Nope. A heretic is someone whose beliefs are outside the accepted doctrinal limits. A person who has left the faith and the religious community is an apostate.
I am still religious. Call me an apostate if you want to get into a really serious fight. But since my beliefs are not acceptable to a large subset of practicing Jews I am, by their standards, a heretic.
Anonymous, the rabbis don’t have any checks at all except their own self-restraint. Torah per se has been superseded by and buried under millennia of scholarship, politics, traditions that have lost their referents, personal likes and dislikes and every other accretion of human nature. Burning Bushes are in short supply. The Almighty doesn’t send prophets anymore. And if She or He did we’d probably kill ‘em.