Once again I have to hand it to the Yeshiva World News coffee room for entertaining and enraging me at the same time. They do a great job at finding people who think that all the evils of this generation have some secret solution by blaming everything on women being untznius.
Is it tznius for women to wear purim costumes, is one of the latest threads to come onto the Yeshiva World News coffee room site – which is basically a really negative blog about all the wrongs of the secular community and how the frum community is da bomb and everyone else sucks. Of course, since it is placed on a “heimishe” site its perfectly ok to put down everyone who isn’t as frum as the commneters.
I have a feeling, or maybe its just my conspiracy brain talking, that there are some rabbis who do research on upcoming bans by figuring out the details of the ban or chumra by placing it on yeshiva world news to see what the masses think, and since the people who frequently comment on yeshiva world news are representative of the population who supports these bans it creates a good sample set, so they can then go through with the ban. Its like having a web user generated chumra site.
Is it tznius for women to wear purim costumes?
Do we even need to ask such a question?
Think about it, the fact that women are wearing purim costumes means they are having fun, which is most definitely assur. It also means that people will look at them, assur again. It also means that there may be colors worn other then black, navy or gray, and that is of course assur and very unztnius which leads men to sin – colors just make so hot. Also, why should a woman wear a costume if they can’t leave the kitchen?
What do you think?
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{ 66 comments… read them below or add one }
If they look like those in the picture, than it shouldn’t be a problem. However, concerning the general population it really depends on what kind of costume they are wearing which would of course apply to men as well. For example, many bais yaakov girls consider wearing make-up on purim a costume. Is make-up considered not tznius? Well if you’re chassidish than it may very well be.
Are you kidding? Drag queens wear less makeup than some chasidish women!
So, I shouldn’t sport the blue wig, stingy brim, and kimono? Darn!
What to say? What to say?
First we (the frum, not me) sit on the other side of the mechitza when men dance on Simchat Torah.
Then Purim comes and not only are we not supposed to get “Drunk enough to not know good from evil” but we can’t even get dressed up? Gimme a break!
Growing up reform (conservative now) I have very few Purim memories but my most memorable was the year my brother (may he be at peace) took me to the thrift store to buy a Queen Esther dress and helped me make a great mask. Yeah, brother was gay and I looked great!
GREAT SHIDDUCH IDEA!
curiousjew.blogspot.com and frumsatire
nice post . if the internet is supposed to be usser h0w come all the haraedi pple still use it?
nice post . if the internet is supposed to be usser h0w come all the haraedi people still use it?
Tamara- you need a giant dose of open-orthodoxy.
The question is should grown ups be dressing up for Purim at all? Is there an age limit to costumes? Some people have the minhag to stop dressing up once they’ve reached a certain age; men and women ( unless its for a skit).
But to digress a bit, I’ve seen men wearing very flamboyant costumes ( I was almost violated by a transvestite once but that’s another story for another time). So why could men get away with dressing up gay but heaven forbid a woman should be seen wearing a fright wig in publicthen hell be upon her? If there is an issue for women dressing up for Purim, then there should be an issue for men as well. Just as long as the costume is tasteful and meets the tznius guidelines, I fail to see where the issue lies.
I guess that would really depend on what they would dress as. Housewife, bais Yaakov principal or alte yenta are OK, stripper, hooker naughty nurse are probably out by most standards, though the idea is kind of funny and scary at the same time. Imagine some of those “Borough park baldies” trying to dress naughty… Yuk!
Just as I see it,
Thanks for uselessly repeating exactly what I said.
yeshiva dude – No one cares.
at the rate these chumras keep going there wont be any frum women left keeping judaism to have any of these bans!
I see pants in that picture. PANTS!?!?!?!? That’s so not right. Come on. Women in pants. POssh.
i just think that a generally modest girl shouldnt use purim as an excuse to dress sexier/more attracting. purim is a jewish holiday after all. if she wants to dress up like a hooker, do it on halloween. (costumes may be flashier than everyday clothing, but people can be honest with themselves and know whether they are wearing a costume in good fun or as an excuse to sex it up)
My best purim costume ever was “pregnant nun”. Had to be seen to be believed. Also ran: “Miss Iran” in full chador.
Not unless you have a Queen Ester fetish.
I am all about Queen Esther she was supposed to be a mad hottie
I like the chador idea; perfect for Purim. And just like modern Persia, every frum community should have its own Modesty Police arresting all violaters… Really, do some of our brethren take notes from the ayatollahs?
Dear Phil, I’d definitely go for naughty nurse. It is as close to a mother and wife out of the three as one could get.
I did not dress up for purim after 12. Nobody told me the reason why. Now I know. It would make people look at me. Well, I wear colours. I do. I will wear color and paint my toenails and colour my hair probably till the day I die (or I get chased down and lynched) Nobody has kicked me the kerb yet.
Now, I do have this gorgeous, colourful dress that I got out of the clothing room at work. It is very Ester-esk. I could wear it as a nightgown or put a top on it, don a crown and some mardi-gras beads and show up. hmmmm… Doubt if I’d win, as the prizes are for the best dressed children, but I’d feel oh so festive.
Then again, that birthday-suit costume idea would definitely steal the show.
Last year, I was ketchup. My back up costume is a Star Trek officer.
Moti: It was ironic. It was also the mid 1980’s. No hate. For what it was worth, the chador was also the basis of the pregnant nun costume and “Death” from Bergman’s “The Seventh Seal”. It was nothing if not versatile.
I see no problem with girls dressing up as long as it still conforms to basic tsnius standards, ie elbows, knees, collar bones covered, and nothing too too flashy. Otherwise, its purim it should be fun. One family I know dressed all the girls as yeshiva bochurim, black skirts white blouses, and painted beards and payos on them… they looked great and tsnius at the same time.
My friend, in a moment of temporary insanity that mothers of three kids under 5 often succumb to, dressed her 3-year old son up as Queen Esther. We all thought it was funny. The Yeshiva shul did not. Other than me and one other friend, nobody spoke to her all night. It was so weird.
I have an idea – let’s ban the whole concept of tznius, a word which seems to give an excuse to create so many other needless bans. While we’re at it, let’s ban Yeshiva World News Coffee Room. If these people are so religious, they should stop wasting time posting nonsense on the internet and spend that time studying and praying!
tznius is relative. if you live in an area where you will only find women wearing black, it would draw attn to you if you are wearin color. if you go to a shul where the ppl. dress upfor purim, and you dont, you will stand out and be not tznious. same thing with socks and shirts and everything.
it all really depends on who you are, where you are and who you are surrounded by. and what everyone is doing. but you need to know what you are comfortable with.
Women have the same obligation as men to hear the megillah on Purim because “even we” were involved in the miracle. By the same token, we should participate equally in all other aspects of Purim- including giving mishloach manot, matanot l’evyonim, drinking a little more than usual, and, yes, wearing costumes. Purim does not justify a woman walking around half-naked (and by half-naked, I’m thinking a bared navel, not a collarbone) any more than it justifies a man getting so drunk he completely loses all self-control and starts acting inappropriately. Just as men are allowed, and even encouraged, to drink, so too women should be encouraged to wear costumes. Those who have higher standards do not need to wear bright colors or even a full-out costume, but come on. It’s assur to buy a cheap paper crown or plastic eye mask? This takes next to no effort and money, and it’s exactly what everyone else will be wearing.
BTW, I’m channeling Halloween this Purim and dressing up as a pumpkin. I have a bright orange T-shirt (it probably covers my collarbone, but my elbows will be exposed! oh no!) and dark green baggy pants (PANTS!!) Then I’m going to stuff a few pillows in my shirt and pull my hair into a high ponytail sticking straight up for the stem. Sure, I’ll look ridiculous, but that’s what Purim is meant to be like. Is my costume assur? Not in my book, and no, I don’t feel the need to consult my rabbi over every little thing when I could easily study the halacha myself.
Leeba rocks.
Aww. Thank you.
*blushing*
Michal, I hope it was not TOS, that’s SOOOO Untznius….
Purim is devolving for some into what Halloween already is: “national dress like a slut day”. I can’t speak for other places that are not the US for Halloween. For purim, I have seen more than one girl who decided that wearing a garment made out of plastic found in saran wrap or grocery bags was an acceptable costume. Now, It does not bother me, but it does send a bit of a mixed message if the day before and after the girl dresses and acts as if she is dressed modestly all the time. This is why I dont wear a Taliban outfit for Purim. I would not want to confuse some of the less intelligent folks I work with..
I posted a comment earlier today that does not seem to be showing up here. Did it get caught by the filter?
Gila,
Difference between costumes and drinking is that drinking is specifically stated in the megillah along with mishloach manot and matanot laevyanim.
Furthermore, drinking is an obligation listed in the Shulchan Aruch, unless one would get sick or being drunk would caused him to forget or miss other mitzvot such as davening.
Dressing up in costumes isn’t stated anywhere, not sure where it came from, but I think it has something to do with the concept of showing how Purim was brought about through hidden miracles, so we commemmorate it by hiding behind a costume.
Regardless, it isn’t even mentioned as a custom in the Shulchan Aruch, so it’s less of an obligation than drinking. If it’s going to cause people to dress in untznius ways such as wearing pants or showing elbows, they are better off not dressing up or finding a new costume.
Is this the same religion that considers Shir Hashirim the holiest of holy songs? That praised Esther’s beauty?
I think Hesh, you are confusing the average Chasidishe or Litvishe family, and the ppl who are on YWN talking about this. NO one sits around thinking of banning stuff and trying to minimize the amount of fun girls have.
There is just a basic concept of tznius that these ppl have that is very inconcievable to and different then the average “modern” Orthodox jew. There is just an unspoken and spoken mode of tznius practiced by these folks that come across to the “average folk” as bans ect. ect.
Which is fine with the average Chasidishe or Litvishe family, who find it just how a real frum person should lead his life, accordingly. However as discussed in the open, and yes most guys who have internet and are blogging on YWN are not in consortion with the rest of their Charedi sect, is not what most of them discuss (not that most of them dont have internet, but most of them would agree that it is not proper for them to be online). For most its a given that after a certain age females are more modest in general, and refrain from calling attention upon themselves, when other men are in their presence.
If you go around purim to these houses giving shalach manos, for them it feels right to just not attract attention when others come and go.
So although they are faltering and using the internet, the values they attest to and stand by are still their true perception of how tznius and boundries should be adhered to.
Jason,
Ummm, I wore red and I usually don’t? I wore a red sweater. Then I had my ketchup bottle hat. It was a funnel, spray painted red. Holes were drilled into it so I could put string and tie it. Then I used a large label and drew a Heintz 57 label onto it.
“If they look like those in the picture”
Yeshivah dude, is that because those girls are fat?
Phil, nice try, but if I didn’t dress up, I would probably be wearing a T-shirt and jeans anyway.
BTW, the Rema says that it’s acceptable for a woman to wear men’s garments and for a man to wear women’s garments on Purim because it’s for the purpose of simcha. So even if you would normally hold that women shouldn’t wear pants, it’s not an issue on Purim.
Critic: you’re full of it.
OTD – sorry, i know, it hurts. You can run, but you can never hide. Like it or not. You will be haunted by the truth YOU were brought up with for the rest of your life.
If the men are supposed to get drunk anyway, then WHO CARES?
michal bas avraham,
No, it’s because they look like ugly nasty sluts!!!
(just being honest)
Usch, Yeshiva Dude. You can be accurate without being so crude.
Those girls look very pretty. Yeshiva dude, why arent you in yeshiva right now? And michal, are you frieking serious.
There’s only one of those girls who might be smalleer than a 6. Don’t you know girls over 130 lbs fat fat fat…. Read the other post, the one about fat girls and short guys.
I can’t believe that anyone would be upset with wearing anything “flashy” ie fine clothing. When avimelech released Sarah he gave her X amount of silver as an eye covering. The Strange Tongue (if you know what the book is called you just outted yourself as well rounded) says that he gave her funds to purchase elegant garments so people would be concerned what she was weaning and not how extremely beautiful she was.
As long as its not totally inappropriate like a matching costume for a couple as a wall outlet and a plug why not?
Michal, I was referring to the star trek costume, not the Ketchup.
Double M – love your typo. If, from her dress, I would be driven to wonder what she was weaning – that must have been _some_ dress.
?
The Strange Tongue (if you know what the book is called you just outted yourself as well rounded) says that he gave her funds to purchase elegant garments so people would be concerned what she was weaning and not how extremely beautiful she was.
SIC
still dont get what your trying to say
“weaning” v. “wearing”. It wasn’t _that_ funny. But I work for illumination of the great frum unwashed.
I’m sorry I put in a 10h day at work followed by a bit of time on my term paper for grad school… you were saying something about unwashed.
MM – “the great unwashed”, the “hoi-polloi”. It’s a literary allusion – maybe more UK than US.
No worries. I, too, did the 10-12 hr day, find a job, finish my diss. Wishing you hatzlacha with that.
Anonymous,
Why are you anonymous!? Oh, and you must be well aquainted with my schedule to be making such bold statements!!!!
I have a very lovely Purim sheitel made of the finest Chinese virgin nylon. Naturally, its lovely curls and vibrant colors enhance anyone’s Purim celebration. I can wear it with anything: purple, orange, green…. And what a bargain! It was only $5.99!
Jason,
News flash, a Star Trek officer’s Jersey is long sleeved and has a high neck.
Michal, learn the lingo, TOS, the old series, had female uniforms with short dresses. Come to think of it, the Next Gen uniforms were awfully tight too… Don’t recall the long skirt version…
Right. Because Star Trek costumes couldn’t be modified to be tzniusdik.
I don’t remember the 614th mitzvah being “Thou shalt not have any fun.”
Well, well I wore the jersey with a long black skirt to something.
Thank you AztecQueen
Just to put things in perspective: http://olbroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/rpolicejewish-final.jpg
I know the teenage guy who starts all those big bad question threads on YWN just to stir up controversy – its really funny actually
I am sure someone is doing it – I tried but my topics were too intellectual and open minded.
more anonymous, is he the Charles R. Darwin username?
Aztec, Michal has proven in previous posts all about her idea of “tznius” and “fun”, but hey, nice one to jump into the middle with full knowledge and all. I could be wrong about her, after all, I supposedly have “the Asian fever”, according to her. Maybe it’s my divorced parents, or sefardic looks, but Michal has proven in a short time to be someone that deserves to get herself called out.
Nu, Jason, we could all do with a little more ahavas yisroel, right? And it’s Adar – so more happiness wouldn’t hurt either.
You’re so right…. why o why sohould women have fun?
In our schul they even invented a separate Megillareading for women, now! WQe’re going away.
You have a point. Sorry Michal… Friends?