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An insiders guide to chabad

This post is more serious then funny but its informative – everyones favorite rabble rouser Phil writes:

Though I usually comment on many of the posts to this site, this is my first attempt at writing a satirical blog post.

In today’s class, we will attempt to delve into the complex world and ways of a decent sized Chabad community. While this task is nearly impossible due to all the politics, factions and weirdos that make up who we are, we can start with some of customs that are apparent to anyone coming for a visit.

Dress code and appearance:

Hats are usually mandatory no matter what they look like and what the weather is. It seems to be more important to wear a hat in the street even when your ears can fall off in minus 30 degree weather, or when you can die of heat stroke. As long as you’ve got that smelly, crushed Borsalino on, you’re one of us. Take it off, and you’re on your way off the derech. Ever notice that none of the original chassidim wore black hats. Maybe it had to do with the fact that Borsalinos weren’t available in Russia?

Moving down to the holy beard, trimming is a no-no, brushing the beard might rip out some hairs, mustache trimming is debatable. Shulchan Aruch says it;s fine, but frummies know better. In fact, the beard is so holy, it’s assur to throw out beard hairs. If one falls out or God forbid you happened to rip it out, it must immidiately be placed into a siddur or chumash forever.

Kapota is the black rabbi coat that was once reserved for the roshei yeshivas and rebbeim. Today, every other married shmo wears one on Shabbos and Yom Tov. I find it really ironic when BT’s drive to shul in Kapotas on Shabbos, or when you see these guys in their kapotas on Motzei Shabbos at blockbuster.

To summarize, it’s more important to dress and look like the Rebbe than it actually is to follow any of his teachings.

Sheitels are mandatory for married women any time they are outside the house. The prettier the sheitel the better, as Jewish / Lubab women are all queens and should be proud to walk around in sheitels that cost enough to take a second mortgage on your house.

When it comes to tznius, we are less militant than our Polish and Hungarian cousins that force their wives to wear bullet proof stockings, shave their heads and cover them with those bellhop type caps. Out of town shluchim’s wives are also given extra leniency when it comes to tznius, not sure if this is done in order to help attract rich men to donate to the Chabad houses.

Daily observance :

Although personal hygiene is advised by the S.A, you can bypass it al by hopping in the mikvah before davening. What better way than dipping in a small pool where another hundred people that are too much in a hurry to shower just dipped into?

Davening is usually quick, not much time wasted. Great thing about our shul is the number of minyanim every day. From 6 :30 AM until 11 :30 AM, a new one sarts ever 30-45 minutes or so. To yechi or to not yechi will be covered later on in this post.

Learning Chitas, Rambam and for the guys with some snag blood, maybe even daf yomi. Most people now get the condensed version in a ‘dvar malchus’ pamphlet, never mind that they don’t understand half of what the are reading.

Food / Kashrus:

Fruits and vegetables are subject to the strictest opinions possible when it comes to bugs, so any new pre-checked invention automatically makes the same species trief if it’s not coming from a reliable pre-checked company. Furthermore, even some canned or frozen goods such as artichokes with an OU are no longer good enough either. Surprisingly enough, the ban on raisins was lifted this week, looks like the rabbi in charge got fed having to dissect every raisin in his breakfast cereal.

Dairy products must all be cholov yisroel, even D.E. doesn’t fly around here. Then you have the extremeist version of people who won’t eat this brand of cheese or avoid that brand of milk for no apparent reason other than “that’s the way it was in our house” aka political B.S.

Meat and chicken must all be shechted by a Lubavitcher in order to be kosher. Never mind that the slaughterhouses are all shared by other chassidim such as Belz and Satmar, and never mind that their shochtim are just as frum as ours. How can anyone eat meat shechted by an evil Satmar or perverted Belzer if they haven’t learned their daily Tanya portion before shechting? As I don’t buy into this racket, and the other butchers often have better meat, some of the kids coming over to us for a BBQ bring their own meat. Poor kids, you should see their faces when our steaks are sizzling next to their cheap hot dogs that are burning, as they contain more startch than meat.

For some reason, we don’t hold by the Yoshon/Chodosh thing. I think the reason behind it is that we have a moral obligation to argue with anything instituted by snags. If we claim that those laws only apply when the beis hamikdash is standing, shouldn’t we be applying them if we believe moshiach is already here?

Yom Tov :

I would get into all the details of the holiday minhagim one at a time, but find it easier to summarize. Unless you’re fasting, all holidays are a reason for waking up really late. In fact, the shuls that start at 10 or 10 :30 AM on Shabbos, have yom tov minyanim starting at noon. Anyone care to guess why? If you guessed Vodka you’re on the right track. All holidays are another excuse to drink and farbreng. Somehow, single malt is popular these days, probably due to large influx of Glennovicher chassidim from Scotland.

Lubavitch holidays, aka yemei depagra :

These are known mainly by insiders, though I must admit I still get many of them confused. OK we have big ones like Yud teds kislev and yud shvat, but who remembers beis iyar or chof cheshvan? Luckily for us, most of these days are no tachnun days, so you’re reminded first thing in the morning. God forbid should the chazzan not start kaddish after chazaras hashatz, 100 people will scream Yisgadal! These holidays are best on Mondays and Thursday, we get to skip 5 minutes instead of 2. These no tachnun days somehow remind me of drawing the “get out of jail free” card in Monopoly, probably because most of them were institued when Lubavticher rebbeim were released from prison. As with all other holidays, another excuse to leave the wife at home with the 10-15 kids and go have some vodka and herring with the “shpitz Chabad” old timers.

Finally down to the mother of all debates :

Gimmel Tammuz / Rebbes yartzeit. OK, that just gave away which side I’m on. Is He really gone? Is He really buried at the Ohel? Is He not still hiding in 770, waiting to join the yechi crowd for one of those now famous Youtube ‘apparitions’?

Are you allowed to add 3 yechis to davening, leing and bentching? Why has yechi not been added to kiddush levana? After all, we do say Dovid Melech, siman tov and sholom aleichem 3 times, why not yechi? What about the Ohel? Is it customary to say yechi there too?

Got to hand it to the profiteers in charge of merchandising, the yechi yarmulkas and tallis bags were one thing, then we got bumper stickersand flags, onto to t shirts, then the best is th guy that had his car custom painted yellow and purple with crowns and yechis all over it. First time I saw it, I figured he would get it licensed and start making hot wheels yechi cars.

To summarize, Chabad is one of the most interesting sects in Judaism today. We have it all from Ex hippies to ex soldiers possibly even ax murderers and everything in between. We reach out to all Jews everywhere, in order to bring them in, although I must say that once they are in, no one knows where to put them unless they loaded with $$$.

Although I love to hate most of what I put up with everyday, I wouldn’t trade it for anything.

{ 117 comments… add one }
  • Jon the A February 15, 2009, 10:56 PM

    Great post!

    🙂

  • TRS February 15, 2009, 11:18 PM

    Yoshon: there’s a sicha that deals with this somewhere. If you want I can get the source for you.

    The rest: too close to the truth to be funny for this proud Lubavitcher.

  • Frum Satire February 15, 2009, 11:25 PM

    I didn’t think it was funny – but it is close to the truth because it was written by one of you people.

  • Left Brooklyn February 15, 2009, 11:34 PM

    Not to be disparaging, but I remember something from one of my theology classes the the second coming had to do with Jesus. Are they wrong? Are they all really waiting for the Rebbe?

  • TRS February 15, 2009, 11:39 PM

    Please oh please oh pretty please with a cheery on top don’t let this turn into a meshichist-anti debate. Those are so 1996.

  • haha February 15, 2009, 11:56 PM

    the rebbe was a major tzadik. some of his retard followers blew things out of proportion. You have those people in every sect of every religion, some more extreme than others. it’s usually some type of emotional glitch.

  • Sergey Kadinsky February 16, 2009, 12:11 AM

    Try visiting the relatively new Chabad of Harlem. This shaliach is different:

    1. He had a career before going into shlichus.
    2. Sometimes wears other hats, not just black borsalinos.
    3. He’s in his fifties, so definitely not one of those young shlichim couples you often see.
    4. He will openly tell you the “yechi” crowd is acting silly.

    Hopefully, he will show you that while shlichim come from the same cloth, they have their own styles and personalities.

  • shevers February 16, 2009, 12:20 AM

    Duh. Shluchim are human beings. You ain’t sayin’ nothin’ new Sergey.

  • Heterim are for Hippies February 16, 2009, 12:40 AM

    close. but some things are a *little* exaggerated.

    *very

  • haha February 16, 2009, 1:02 AM

    dude, shlichim do a service for klal yisroel that nobody else has the courage to step up to. Seriously, cut the yechi crap.

  • Lady-Light February 16, 2009, 1:05 AM

    Hey, don’t knock ’em. Not all Chabads are like what you (or whoever wrote this post) describe. I invite you to daven at our Chabad in D—– when you get here. Our rav is a wonderful guy.
    There’s only one problem: nobody in this shul can sing. . .

  • observant February 16, 2009, 3:47 AM

    hmm, am i sensing some discomfort? if you have issues with the chabad community my friend, leave. go figure yourself out. and dont, do not, be self righteous. ugh. with that said, i think chabad has got some mjor kinks to work out, but hey, who doesnt?

  • Anonymous February 16, 2009, 6:46 AM

    Lady Light
    You invited us to daven in a chabad house in a city the starts with “D”. 2 problems:1)there are many a city that start with “D” 2)even if I knew the city, there are many a chabad houses in most cities. Please be more specific

  • anonymous President's day February 16, 2009, 7:56 AM

    What major service to klal Yisroel are the shlichim performing? Giving us kosher food in Timbuktu? If it weren’t for Chabad I’d be fine with tuna fish and crackers, so that is not a reason to justify their existence. Making people BTs to Lubavitch is a service to klal Yisroel, really?

  • Phil / author February 16, 2009, 8:27 AM

    Obeservant,

    I’m just calling things the way I see them living in a decent sized Lubab community. I’m not uncomfortable with anything, I’m numb to it, as I’ve lived in this area for 30 years.

    You won’t find most of the things I mentioned in most small Chabad shuls, i.e. the shliach and a couple devout followers, you need to go to a Lubavitch community with a few hundred families in order to notice most of these ironies.

    President’s day anon,

    Tuna fish is an issue I missed, most Lubavitchers don’t eat OU or other hechsher tuna, only king of the sea or “dagim” (same brand, different sticker. Seems like the heter given by R. Soloveichik isn’t good enough around here.

    TRS,

    As far as I’ve heard, most chassidim (not just Chabad) don’t follow the chodosh/yoshon thing because we hold that it’s only applicable when the Beis Hamikdash is standing as I mentioned in the original post. Our local hechsher is made up of a mix of all communities, but run by snags, so we get the yearly yoshon alerts with bakeries/companies that pre-purchase quotas of flour 1 year in advance.

  • Anonymous February 16, 2009, 11:30 AM

    don’t chasidim have a kabalah from the BST that the halachah is like the minority opinion (the Bach i think) that we do not keep Yahon in Chut laretz?

  • Joe February 16, 2009, 11:38 AM

    the black coat was the norm in many communities in europe as it was called a lange reckel. It was jewish garb…the rebbe is reputed to have said that if he thought he would have been succesful in implementing it he would have had even the bochurim wear it all week as well. The rebbe himself had worn a suit jacket during the week even after marriage so that became the norm…..

  • haha February 16, 2009, 12:32 PM

    anonymous,

    Are you really that retarted? Do you not know what the chabad in Mumbai India did? Rav Holtzberg slaughtered hundreds of chickens for guests, they cooked meals for hundreds of people. They would allow for people a place to read the Torah and learn and daven. They have beds for guests to sleep. They give counseling and support. They put themselves in the middle of nowhere without any friends or family so that they can service shmucks like you. Jesus man, a little respect and hakaras hatov.

  • Chris_B February 16, 2009, 2:06 PM

    One of the two Chabad Houses here in Tokyo is super friendly. Not sayin the other isnt, just dont know it.

    OK I been waiting to ask this for a while now, what in the heck is “snag”? The googles, they dont help.

  • TRS February 16, 2009, 2:22 PM

    Snags they are slimy creatures from outer space sent to destroy humanity. Otherwise known as misnagdim, i.e. Those who opposed the chassidim back in the day. Now it generally refers to anyone who thinks that lakewood is a pretty good place to spend more than five seconds in.

  • Dan the man February 16, 2009, 3:09 PM

    Chabad never uses an eruv. They also never wear a kittle at the sader.

  • Anonymous February 16, 2009, 3:31 PM

    >>shlichim do a service for klal yisroel that nobody else has the courage to step up to

    So a few thousand people change the fact that many more are completely uneducated, hate non-Chassidim, and worship the Rebbe?

    >>Snags they are slimy creatures from outer space sent to destroy humanity. Otherwise known as misnagdim, i.e. Those who opposed the chassidim back in the day. Now it generally refers to anyone who thinks that lakewood is a pretty good place to spend more than five seconds in.

    And here it is. Again. The hate that Chabad has for everyone who chassidish is disgusting. The fact that Rabbi Holczberg shechted so many chickens did nothing for him. Yet you expect it to apply to those who are not in Chabad–after they are unilaterally attacked like this?

    Did the Rebbe encourage such hatred? Cause its starting to look like that.

  • face February 16, 2009, 4:17 PM

    Wow…Anonomous is a pretty big Snaggot

  • Anonymous February 16, 2009, 4:27 PM

    Face,

    Interesting diversion. Thank you for demonstrating your hatred toward anyone who is not from Chabad.

  • Benji February 16, 2009, 5:28 PM

    As a Recovering Snag, and someone who is pretty much completely unaffiliated to any Jewish sect. I would say that most people in the Chabad community don’t have hatred for any Jews, in fact they are the most open-minded and welcoming people I have ever met. The comment about a snag being someone who thinks Lakewood is a good place to spend more than 5 seconds in WAS A JOKE. It was meant in a light hearted way, to illustrate that if you were taught that learning all day was the only option, otherwise you are dirt, and you teach that to you children… You’re probably a snag. The term snag is not meant as a put down to anyone (since the Vilna Gaon was the time frame for actual Misnagdim) it pretty much is a term for non-lubavitchers. The propaganda that Lubavithcers hate all non-Lubavtichers is against everything they stand for.
    Oh and by the way. I go to the Chabad Shul in West Bloomfield Michigan, because it was the only Shul I ever felt comfortable in (and I have been in many) even though I am not affiliated with Chabad. Anyone of you are more than welcome to come over any time.

  • Phil / author February 16, 2009, 7:28 PM

    Snags aren’t what they once were. The original ones back in the Vilna Gaon’s time actually banned Chassidim from marrying them and working for them, based on some twisted ideas they had about chassidim being herectics.

    Today, they have copied Chabad’s outreach program after seeing it’s success, although they still swear by mussar.

    In general, Lubavitchers tend to view “snags” as the yeshivish type that learn gemara in the morning and evening instead of Tanya, maybe mesilas yeshorim, chovos halevavos, etc. Typically black hatted and usually clean shaven ashkenazim.

    I quoted the daf yomi as being snaggish, as most lubabs don’t learn it even though it’s printed in the dvar malchus daly regimen, alongside chumash, tanya, rambam and hayom yom.

  • TRS February 16, 2009, 7:51 PM

    My new definition of a snag: someone who can’t take a joke.
    Daf yomi: it’s printed in there so that non-Lubavs will use them.

  • Phil February 16, 2009, 8:46 PM

    Good one TRS.

  • shame February 16, 2009, 10:00 PM

    shame shame shame, that some of you cannot recognize the good that chabad contributes to the world. As a proud Lubavitcher, Chabad and chabad philosophy is perfect, although not all of its followers may follow all its “minhagim” completely. (which btw exists in every single other sect of Jews as well). And while it is not our goal to get you to love us, we certainly will not stand idly while you try to dis our leader, who btw was praised and respected by many other non-chabad Rebbe’s and Jewish and non-Jewish leaders. This! is the strength of Chabad, that has existed throughout the generations and grown only stronger and despite the opposition. When there is apparent descent/tragedy we step UP the efforts to spread more Yiddishkeit and do more. Be proud of who you are, do another Mitzvah, make the world a better place, and above all love your fellow as yourself. Same soul, same stuff.

  • s(b.) February 16, 2009, 10:21 PM

    Thanks for sharing, phil.

    I think a balance of chassidus and mussar is healthy for my spiritual diet. (if something different works for you, I’m happy you know what works for you, and sei gesund with that.)

  • Joseph February 16, 2009, 11:06 PM

    Lubavitch will always have my respect just for standing up to all those shouting ‘Peace, peace’ during the Oslo era even as Jews were being blown to pieces each day by Hamas. Meanwhile the black-hatters for the most part were content to sit with Shas and keep Rabin, peres and their ilk in power. For shame!

  • haha February 17, 2009, 1:58 AM

    anonymous,

    U seem confused. go for a walk and think about life.

  • Anonymous February 17, 2009, 10:04 AM

    >>I would say that most people in the Chabad community don’t have hatred for any Jews, in fact they are the most open-minded and welcoming people I have ever met.

    Then why did the Rebbe support Foyleh Kahn’s statement that the Chazon Ish is jealous of Lubavitch Children learning Tanya because only Tanya is the pnimius of the Torah? That sounds pretty closed minded to me.

    >>who btw was praised and respected by many other non-chabad Rebbe’s and Jewish and non-Jewish leaders.

    This is an exaggeration. The vast majority of Jewish leaders expressed very strong antipathy toward him. Perhaps non Jewish and Chabad leaders respected him, though.

  • Anonymous February 17, 2009, 10:05 AM

    >>U seem confused. go for a walk and think about life.

    How easy.

  • Phil February 17, 2009, 10:17 AM

    Anonymous,

    Most leaders did respect the Rebbe as anyone with half an ounce of brains realized that he was a great tzaddik, devoting his time, life and efforts to Jews worldwide.

    To say that the “The vast majority of Jewish leaders expressed very strong antipathy toward him” is sheer ignorance on your part. I suggested you get the story straight before spewing crap and calling it fact.

    Lubavitch USED to be one of the most respected and widely accepted chassidic groups in the world, with a few exceptions. They were the first to arrive and establish many major Jewish communites across North America, as well as thousands of Chabad houses in smaller cities.

    Over the years politics, corruption and finally the whole “yechi” thing along with their overzealous freaks,turned us into the laughingstock of the chassidic/frum world, where today people even question if we are part of the same religion.

  • Anonymous February 17, 2009, 10:24 AM

    >>Most leaders did respect the Rebbe as anyone with half an ounce of brains realized that he was a great tzaddik, devoting his time, life and efforts to Jews worldwide.

    This is simply untrue–both then and now.

    >>is sheer ignorance on your part. I suggested you get the story straight before spewing crap and calling it fact.

    It seems that you have been indoctrinated to the point where you cannot distinguish your subjective fancy from objective reality. Once again, many leaders expressed strong concerns about the rebbe–concerns which have not been addressed about a “tzaddik” for hundreds of years.

    >>Lubavitch USED to be one of the most respected and widely accepted chassidic groups in the world, with a few exceptions.

    This is true. The Alter Rebbe was one of the greatest Chassidish leaders, too. His seforim, both in halacha and nistar, are some of the greatest contributions to Jewish scholarship in the last 250 years.

    >>turned us into the laughingstock of the chassidic/frum world, where today people even question if we are part of the same religion.

    So then you understand why so many great leaders expressed their reservations about Chabad in general and its leader who, at the least, apparently let this happen.

    I don’t deny that some leaders were very impressed by the Rebbe, but he was not without some very formidable opposition–and the opposition expressed was extremely atypical given the personalities of his opponents and the nature of the charges made.

    Personally, I don’t think Chabad is openminded, and I certainly do not believe the Rebbe was, either. This is not a chisaron, btw. It only becomes a chisaron when his prejudice toward non Chassidism is denied.

  • Phil February 17, 2009, 10:58 AM

    Anon,

    I’m no Sicha expert, but I never heard or read anything disparaging said by the Rebbe against any other Jew.

    On the flip side, the only person leader I ever heard quoted saying somehting against Lubavitch was rav Shach, again I heard it from Lubabs, so God knows what he really said.

    Even though the Alter Rebbe made his great contributions to religion as you point out, he had more and fiercer opposition the the last Rebbe. In his day, he was considered more of a heretic than anyone ever considered the Rebbe, to the point that he was jailed because of it.

    People only started the yechi crap when the Rebbe was paralyzed from his stroke and unable to do much or say anything against it. In earlier days, he spoke out on various occasions against people calling him mashiach.

    I recently read a letter where he very strongly pointed out the Rambam’s ruling about mashiach having to rebuild the beis hamikdash in order to qualify, and he even pointed out the Rambam’s ruling regarding Bar Kochba, that someone that died was no longer a possible candidate.

    The fact that a number of mentally disturbed people that call themselves Lubavitchers can go against the Rambam which they learn every day, and twist the clearly written words of the Rebbe ZTL, is beyond understanding.

    These so called chassidim that are basically in denial and refuse to accept to truth, are destroying everything the previous rebbeim have worked to build, and they then have the nerve to shove our faces into their shit, by running around screaming yechi like maniacs, hanging flags in the street and on their cars, etc.

    To the outside world, it looks like were all part of their idiocies, as most people tend to stereotype and judge groups based on the actions or the most vocal/visible individuals.

    • m September 12, 2010, 12:23 AM

      which letter is this? you are the only lubavitcher who has said the rebbe cannot be moshiach

      • Phil September 12, 2010, 2:32 PM

        M,

        I found the letter that answers all the issues at once, it’s on page 273 of the Rebbe letter in English from the book “The letter and the spirit” translated by Nissan Mindel.

        I’m quoting word for word from the English translation (Dr. Nissan Mindel), the Rebbe is expanding on the ruling of the Rambam hil Melachim, ch 11:

        Start quote:
        We see clearly that even after he induces ALL of the Jewish people to walk in the path of Torah, etc., it may be ASSUMED that he is Mashiach, but it is not certain, and it could in fact turn out that he is not. In other words, there is still a possibility that even this event will not spell the end of Galut. As a mater of fact, Rambam mentions in the previous Halacha the fact that there was a time in Jewish history when it appeared that Mashiach had arrived, in the person of Shimon ben Kuziba, yet it later became quite clear that he was not. ONLY WHEN – as the Rambam says – he will build the sanctuary in it’s place and will gather the disperesed of Israel, ONLY THEN will it be certain that HE is Mashiach beyond all doubt.
        End quote.

  • AztecQueen2000 February 17, 2009, 11:31 AM

    OK, pardon my ignorance, but my exposure to Chabad was a small startup run by a nice couple who were happy if you just showed up, Borsalino or no Borsalino.
    What does this “yechi” business mean?

  • Phil February 17, 2009, 12:07 PM

    Aztecqueen,

    You were exposed to “Chabad classic” as opposed to “new wave”, kind of what Coca Cola did back in the eighties.

    “Yechi” is the proverbial “battle cry of the insane”, referring to messianic Lubavitchers that believe the Rebbe is the messiah and still alive, etc.

  • yeshiva dude February 17, 2009, 2:31 PM

    The truth about lubabs is that they do some nice things like kiruv and making sure there’s always enough alcohol around. However, they are if not the biggest embarrasment to Judaism when it comes to the insanity about their “rebbe”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I’m especially referring to the mishichists). Some crazy things they do include; handing out posters all over manhatten including the subway about the rebbe ,while wearing a talis and tefilen and screaming yichi, the pictures of the “rebbe” in shul!!!!!! I mean come on do you think he’s G-d or something.

  • yeshiva dude February 17, 2009, 2:33 PM

    What really disturbs me is that I saw footage of the Lubavicher “rebbe” coming into some room packed with chasidim and they were all chanting things implying that he is mashiach or even G-d for that matter, and he just clapped along and did not even quite them down!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is nothing you can do that could convince me there’s nothing wrong there.

  • Anonymous February 17, 2009, 3:51 PM

    Anon,

    >>I’m no Sicha expert, but I never heard or read anything disparaging said by the Rebbe against any other Jew.

    You are not a sicha expert, clearly. But the Rebbe is known not merely to support the above-referenced comment made by Foyleh Kahn despite strong protestations made by nearly everyone, as it was a malicious thing to say about the Chazon Ish, of all people, but the Rebbe even made note that there was an outcry, but did not think it was wrong. His views toward non-chabad Jews was negative. He may have sincerely believed them, but they were prejudiced.

    >>On the flip side, the only person leader I ever heard quoted saying somehting against Lubavitch was rav Shach, again I heard it from Lubabs, so God knows what he really said.

    You are right. The only think you know about this subject is what you have heard by Lubabs–lubabs who are obviously very ignorant of the issues and far more interested in attempting to put their leader in the most flattering light possible. Rav Shach (not shach) was one of many great tzadikim and talmidei chachomim who held very strong reservartions concerning the Rebbe and his beliefs. The smear campaigns against Rav Shach, in writing, speech and the internet, are disgusting and completely untrue. Even the “quotes” they make to his name are taken out of context if not completely contrived. The point is Rav Shach was one of many (and there many to this day who agree with him) who did not think positively about some of the Rebbe’s views.

    >>Even though the Alter Rebbe made his great contributions to religion as you point out, he had more and fiercer opposition the the last Rebbe. In his day, he was considered more of a heretic than anyone ever considered the Rebbe, to the point that he was jailed because of it.

    No one suggested the things they suggest about the Baal Hatanya that were suggested about the Rebbe.

    >>People only started the yechi crap when the Rebbe was paralyzed from his stroke and unable to do much or say anything against it. In earlier days, he spoke out on various occasions against people calling him mashiach.

    The Yechi “crap” is only part of the problem. A certain am hooretz by the last name Wolpe suggested the Rebbe was moshiach well before the stroke. So did Butman. And the latter wrote pamphlets proving his assertions based on the sichos.

    >>I recently read a letter where he very strongly pointed out the Rambam’s ruling about mashiach having to rebuild the beis hamikdash in order to qualify, and he even pointed out the Rambam’s ruling regarding Bar Kochba, that someone that died was no longer a possible candidate.

    And yechiniks show how the Rambam means something else. Obviously, those illiterate mamzerim are out of their mind. But their beliefs are sincere, and are exclusively premises on what they believe the rebbe taught them.

    The baal Hatanya never wrote anything to suggest the things the rebbe did. The rebbe even suggested that the Rambam, when he wrote “bmkomo” (as in he will build the beis hamikdosh in its place) may mean in moshiach’s place, which, he chided, would be in 770.

    Who talks like that?

    >>The fact that a number of mentally disturbed people that call themselves Lubavitchers can go against the Rambam which they learn every day, and twist the clearly written words of the Rebbe ZTL, is beyond understanding.

    A number? You make it sound like we are dealing only with a few thousand!

    >>These so called chassidim that are basically in denial and refuse to accept to truth, are destroying everything the previous rebbeim have worked to build, and they then have the nerve to shove our faces into their shit, by running around screaming yechi like maniacs, hanging flags in the street and on their cars, etc.

    I agree. If Chabad did something about this, I would be more inclined to believe you. But, unfortunately, they come in large numbers, and they claim that many others agree with them–they merely do not suggest it in the open.

    Chabad has refused to renounce the idea — in a public forum — that is Rebbe is not moshiach. In fact, they usually wistfully answers, “Who knows?” For this reason, the representations of the meshichists that they are merely voicing basic chabad views is not all that incredible.

    >>To the outside world, it looks like were all part of their idiocies, as most people tend to stereotype and judge groups based on the actions or the most vocal/visible individuals.

    Think about the logic of your statement. If they were so few, they would not be so visible. How could so many people be so stupid and fall for something which is so untrue? Who is teaching it to them? Why are they not being stopped?

    The answer is obvious.

    To the outside world, Chabad appears to have distanced themselves from all other frum Jews and seeks to perform outreach work on non-frum Jews and indoctrinate them with their views which place unduly heavy influence on its rebbe.

    They come across as deeply and profoundly hateful toward all Jews who are not like them. There is great ignorance among them because all they teach is chassidus–no learning.

    Its a disaster. What did the rebbe do about it?

    Nothing.

  • nu February 17, 2009, 4:21 PM

    Come on Phil, we are waiting eagerly. Are you doing research?

  • Anonymous February 17, 2009, 5:09 PM

    Before Phil responds, I want him to know I have nothing against him personally.

  • haha February 17, 2009, 5:50 PM

    yeshiva dude,

    the Lubavitcher Rebbe experience a major life altering stroke. After that he was known to barely speak. that could explain why he wasnt able or didnt speak up about the mashiach talk

  • CA February 17, 2009, 5:56 PM

    It’s funny how most idiots and ignoramuses are anonymous.

    Before Anonymous responds, I have nothing against him. Or her. Or it. What with being anonymous.

    There are two types of people:

    1) intelligent
    2) those who think like Pavlov’s dog.

  • CA February 17, 2009, 5:58 PM

    haha,

    It is known that he indicated his displeasure with it. He correctly predicted that some idiots would not have maturity and intelligence to understand it correctly (see above about Pavlov’s dog) and other idiots would understand it like children (with the same level of maturity and lack of self-control).

  • Phil February 17, 2009, 6:47 PM

    Anon,

    I’ll answer whatever I can of the top of my head:

    1- The Rebbe was believed to be mashiach by many followers during his lifetime, much the way Rabbi Akiva believed barKochba was. I R. Akiva was wrong. so could any one else such as Wolpo be.

    2- The official Chabad stance is not Yechi. By official I mean the head office and the Shluchim, that’s why you won’t find any crap on the ONLY official site = Chabad.org.

    3- People will generalize based on the mostradical factions, that’s simple fact. For example, I wouldn’t dare visit Gaza because 10% of the population might kill me. For the same reason, I wouldn’t take an evening stroll in some gang infested hoods in the US, even 90% of their inhabitants are probably indoors watching TV. The numbers of die hard yechis really vary from place to place. Some are 90% for, some are 100% against. Don’t judge the entire movementand it’s constituents based on the radicals. Just because the majority of Americans voted for obama, does that mean the entire country is behind him?

    4- Chassidus doesn’t teach or advocate not learning. Have you ever learned any?

  • yeshiva dude February 17, 2009, 6:58 PM

    haha- I said I saw footage (which was played by lubabs on a large screen in mayrone in Israel on lag beomer with about a million Jews there over night) during his lifetime and he was dancing and clapping to their chants. Even if this only took place after he was sick, was he capable of any kind of communication with which he could have indicated his displeasure? Additionally, isn’t it a well known fact that Rav Shach spoke out publicly against him!?? For some strange reason Rav Shach did not speak out like that about many people.

  • yeshiva dude February 17, 2009, 7:03 PM

    Phil,

    Assuming you’re referring to me in 3, I never said all lubabs, in fact I explicitly said mishichists (hope I spelled that correctly). However, I do have a question for the normal ones; why don’t you speak up and protest this obsene behavior at shul or something!!!!!!!???????

  • Phil February 17, 2009, 7:31 PM

    Yeshiva dude,

    I was referring to anon. Either way, our shul doesn’t allow yechi’s. The mainstream yechi shul, also has minyanim where yechis are unofficially banned, such as the 6:30 AM shacharis I go to. On a couple occasions where some of the militant yechi’s started their crap, they were thrown out (nearly physically).

    Unfortunately, the yeshiva is run by yechi’s, so most of the teachers preach it to some extent, some worse than others. Kids are smarter than most people think they are though, they eventually learn what to accept and what not to accept.

    In regard to those that feel that Chabad needs to publicly denounce the yechi campaigners, I ask you this: Do Obama or Oprah have to publicly denounce every black man that calls blacks “niggers”, such as Eddy Murphy, Chris Rock and most gangsta rappers?

  • Anonymous February 17, 2009, 7:31 PM

    >>It’s funny how most idiots and ignoramuses are anonymous.

    With a name like CA, you are just as anonomous as me. . .

    Think that over.

    And while you are at it, do yourself and your movement a favor: think before you write. You do yourself an enormous disservice by talking down to people who, based on your writing and comments, likely know a lot more about this subject than you.

    To Phil:

    Wolpo is not Rabbi Akiva. He is an am hooretz. The Rebbe did not even disavow himself from Wolpo’s ridiculous “proof”, he merely chastised him for making chassidus less palatable for non chassidim. The Rebbe did not meet most of the requirements the Rambam maintained Moshiach must fulfill when Wolpo wrote it. (Obviously he does not now). With much tortured reasoning and intellectual dishonesty, he made arguments which are not merely untenable–they demonstrate his complete lack of judgment. The fact the rebbe did not distance himself from this kind of thinking strongly suggests he did not disagree. And that is why this is also different from Rabbi Akiva: Rabbi Akiva did not coronate himself, he did not allow others to think he is Moshiach. Bar Kochba, on the other hand, believed what he did because the Gadol Hador said he is.

    The Rebbe does not have nearly as good a justification.

    The fact that Chabad Central does not have Yechi on their webpage means little. Its not a trademark. But they never chastise the “radicals” for revealing what they all believe: that the Rebbe is moshiach. Even Yoel Kahan does nto say its wrong, he merely says one cannot publicize it because everyone would think they are nuts.

    I KNOW that much of chassidus does not advocate the wholesale abandonment of learning. But most of the Chabadniks I met were incredibly ignorant, too–more so than the chassidim I grew up with. For a chassidus which purports to be about pnimius and emes, this is quite inappropriate and inconsistent with the original objectives of the Alter Rebbe.

    And, again, I find the Rebbe’s hostility toward the Chazon Ish unforgivable. It was a unilateral attack against an undisputed gadol who was considerably older than the Rebbe and–worse–he was already in the olam haemes. This was an unusually cowardly and mean spirited thing to do.

  • yeshiva dude February 17, 2009, 8:21 PM

    Phil,

    Thanks, I now have a better picture of the way things run by you guys. My answer to your question is that when people who share the same beliefs as you and are within a more specific group (lubabs vs. niggers) than yes, you are held responsible for what they do and say and it’s also your responsibility to subdue them.

  • CA February 17, 2009, 8:28 PM

    Rabbi Akiva was not wrong.

  • CA February 17, 2009, 8:32 PM

    Anonymous,

    It’s a sign of amaratztus to be a know-it-all. But you’re an am ha’aretz just based on your comments. And not intelligent one at that (an intelligent person researches the best cases of arguments from both side of machloikes, not just one).

  • Phil February 17, 2009, 8:45 PM

    Anon & yeshiva dude,

    I’m in no position to stop anyone from believing whatever stupidity they want to believe. Nor am I the Lubavitch spokeman, that has to try to justify all that is wrong with Lubavitch. You both seem to be kind of hung up and focusing on all the bad you can find, what about all the good?

    My rant was posted as an “insider”, one who can poke fun at my own community. In fact, I do so quite often in shul or at shiurim too, it’s not just for the blog. People learn to accept it, those that don’t will usually pout and leave.

    Anon, your comments seem more hateful than satirical, kind of the difference between Pauly Rodrigez making fun of Mexicans, Chris Rock making fun of blacks or me ranting about them being wetbacks, niggers, etc. Obviously if I got up on a stage and said the same things they did I’d be shot on site.

    I don’t know what you refer to about the Chazon Ish at all, the teachers in Lubab school spoke highly of him. Only one I ever heard anything bad about was Rav Shach, most of it came from young bochurim and other students.

    Wolpo didn’t speak for all of Chabad, he wrote his opinions down before the Rebbe passed away, at which time he was the gadol hador in almost every chabadnicks opinion. He very well could have been mashiach if there was less bickering among frum Jews. Obviously the sinas chinam that put us here is still alive and rampant in all sects, most of us are guilty of it to one extent or another.

    At any rate, if mashiach were to show up today, not one sect would accept him unless he were one of their own. Imagine the uproar in Lakewood if some rabbi in Crown heights came riding on a donkey, or the pandemonium in Williamsburg if a sephardi claimed he were mashiach. Unthinkable by today’s standards. Why?

  • CA February 17, 2009, 9:09 PM

    The problem with Mashiach situation is people think the statement “certain person is Mashiach” means “rabbi X is Mashiach”. While some people think that, that’s foolish.

    On a related note, Mashiach needs to come before Beis HaMikdosh will be rebuilt — otherwise, he is not Mashiach. But then, who can convince people to rebuild Beis HaMikdosh but the Mashiach? It’s so funny how snags are stuck up on the idea of proving that someone is NOT Mashiach.

  • CA February 17, 2009, 9:10 PM

    (I mean, Beis HaMikdosh needs to be rebuilt before someone is proclaimed to be Mashiach. But who can convince people to rebuild it but Mashiach?)

  • Believer February 18, 2009, 8:17 AM

    “Yehe adonienu moranu vrabainu melek hamassiah loam veed.” Those werds give me hope,strenth,confidence and everyday and it makes me beleive the rebbe will come and save us very soon,its somthing to look foward to, a world of utopia and paradice.A world of happiness. If you guys are sayin its all BS Ill pop one right now cause I hate this shty world we live in and it makes me depressed !!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Phil February 18, 2009, 8:24 AM

    Believer,

    Have another lchaim. Still hung over from the chos bes shvat farbrengen?

  • Anonymous February 18, 2009, 9:57 AM

    >>In regard to those that feel that Chabad needs to publicly denounce the yechi campaigners, I ask you this: Do Obama or Oprah have to publicly denounce every black man that calls blacks “niggers”, such as Eddy Murphy, Chris Rock and most gangsta rappers?

    I don’t see the comparison. Are you suggesting that offensive words like the n-word are even in the same ball park as Yechi?

    CA,

    >>It’s a sign of amaratztus to be a know-it-all.

    I don’t even know where to being on the irony of this statement.

    >>But you’re an am ha’aretz just based on your comments. And not intelligent one at that (an intelligent person researches the best cases of arguments from both side of machloikes, not just one).

    All you do is throw one line insults. You cannot even create one intelligent argument. You are just making it worse for yourself. You do not have the intellectual gravitas to have a dialogue with someone who is informed and learned. Hit the books and come back. Stop doing this to yourself.

    >>Anon, your comments seem more hateful than satirical

    Where is the hate? And when did I ever suggest I was attempting satire? Is all you can do in response to my gripe concerning the Rebbe’s intolerable insult concerning the Chazon Ish is state that my comments are hateful? My comments are based on significant research. I cannot help if the facts are negative.

    >>I don’t know what you refer to about the Chazon Ish at all, the teachers in Lubab school spoke highly of him. Only one I ever heard anything bad about was Rav Shach, most of it came from young bochurim and other students.

    I see you are new to Lubavitch. The Rebbe did this many decades ago. It created an enormous stir and pretty much eroded any possible respect I can have the rebbe. The comments made about Rav Shach are beyond the pale. I don’t think I have ever heard goyim talk the way I have heard Lubavitchers talk about Rav Shach. One lubavitcher commented that Rav Shach was a greater sonei yisroel than Hitler on a blog (a Lubavitch one) and no one said or wrote a word.

    >>Wolpo didn’t speak for all of Chabad, he wrote his opinions down before the Rebbe passed away, at which time he was the gadol hador in almost every chabadnicks opinion.

    That he was held to be the Gadol Hador by adulating (although in many cases ignorant) followers means nothing. The Rambam’s qualifications control, and the Rebbe met perhaps one of them. Lest you are unaware of this: The Rebbe held that the Rambam’s position on this issue controls.

    >>He very well could have been mashiach if there was less bickering among frum Jews.

    Impossible. See above. He did not fulfull the vast majority of the requirements. And the Rebbe, as I wrote before, caused machlokes decades before when he said motzi shem rah on a meis who was–in everyone’s opinion–an actual gadol. There were many great gaonim and tzadikim in the Rebbe’s time. Need we to forget the Skolye Rebbe, the Ribnitzer Rebbe, Rav Moshe Feinstein, and many, many others who were as great if not greater tzadikim and gaonim. You were brainwashed on this particular point.

    >>Obviously the sinas chinam that put us here is still alive and rampant in all sects, most of us are guilty of it to one extent or another.

    But few are as guilty of it as Chabad itself. To suggest that they are openminded when you have mental duds like CA, Hirshel Tzig and their ilk spreading hate which would cause a member of the KKK to salivate, one can only continue to wonder what was this important message of the Rebbe that Chabad clings to which drives such emptiness, desparation, ignorance, and incredible hatred for everyone outside Chabad.

    >>At any rate, if mashiach were to show up today, not one sect would accept him unless he were one of their own. Imagine the uproar in Lakewood if some rabbi in Crown heights came riding on a donkey, or the pandemonium in Williamsburg if a sephardi claimed he were mashiach. Unthinkable by today’s standards. Why?

    This is not at all true. The greatness of Moshiach is that everyone will see in him their spark. Second, Chabad is least likely to accept the real Moshiach because so many still believe its rebbe to be it. When the truth comes out–and it should come today–I do not believe any other sect would be as brokenhearted and more predisposed to scoff than Chabad.

    Like I wrote, the fact remains that the Rebbe did not deny that he was Moshiach–he merely reprimanded his chassidim for making their beliefs known. This is very likely to make people wonder about the rebbe. We all know he was reputed to be brilliant. We all know that many people loved him. But his tacit acknowledgment will always cause other frum Jews to wonder what he was thinking.

  • Phil February 18, 2009, 10:35 AM

    Anon,

    Exactly my point regarding Oprah, etc. According to your reasoning, every black person needs to come out against other black people calling each other niggers.

    Your comments are basicaly generalizing the entire Chabad movement, all the good it’s done and all the peope it has brought back to the righteous path, based on your opinion of a few “mental duds” just shows that you’re the one that’s been raised with prejudice. We all know that the misnagdim of yesteryear were the ones to put chassidim in cherem, and not vice versa.

    Fact is that Chabad started, revolutionized and ran outreach even before they reached North America. Go anywhere in the worls,you’ll always find an open door and a kosher meal at Chabad. That is what the movement stands for, everything else is fluff.

    Misnagdim and even other chassidim such as Satmar, preffered the “bury your head in the gemara” approach to assimilation until recent times. Kollel/Aish/Ohr recently woke up to the problem, copied and eventually perfected some of the methods Chanad invented when it comes to outreach.

    In my 30 years in Lubavitch I’ve never heard of or read about the Rebbe speaking disparagingly about any other Jew, let alone Tzadikim. You keep referring to some “famous” comments, I would love to see your sources.

    And again, don’t judge the entire group based on the worse cases you can find, I believe that’s how hitler got the antisemitic Europeans to go along with his plans.

  • Margelit February 18, 2009, 1:40 PM

    TRS, please post the source for ignoring yoshon! Also, what’s up with not sifting flour in chutz la’aretz?

  • yeshiva dude February 18, 2009, 2:12 PM

    CA,

    I believe that everyone will know when the true mashiach is here and it’s time to rebuild the bais hamikdash when we don’t have to be “convinced” that he is.

    Phil,

    To be more specific, there’s a difference between referring to tutzi’s (a sect of blacks) in Africa, and “niggers” as a whole. In that case, tutzi’s are judged by the actions of other tutzi’s whereas, “niggers” should not be judged by what other blacks do because they have no similarities (beliefs, accent, traditions), except for the black skin.

  • Mishichist February 18, 2009, 2:28 PM

    I dead person can be moshiach read up on your Gemarah you ignoramous narrow minded apikores

  • Phil February 18, 2009, 2:39 PM

    Yeshiva dude, thanks for clearing that up. I wasn’t implying that hard working blacks were the same as the boyz n da hood niggaz.

    Mishichist, before calling people names, go learn Rambam hilchos melachim like a good Lubavitcher. If you still believe, go soak your head in a bucket of Smirnoff.

  • TRS February 18, 2009, 3:02 PM

    Margelit: I’ll look it up and email you or something. Why should we sift flower?

  • Benji February 18, 2009, 3:10 PM

    Guys, I think this has gone on long enough. As someone who is neither a part of the Yeshiva movement or Chabad I am floored at the venom here.
    If Rav Shach, the Chazon Ish, The Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Akiva, and every other person who’s name has been in this argument were all sitting in a room. They would be embarrassed at how we are talking to one another. People make mistakes. Maybe the Lubavitcher Rebbe could have been a better politician, or could have hired better publicists. But he was not in the business of politics. He was a Rabbi. Maybe the Rav Shach and the Cazon Ish were harsh in their statements. Again, they were working to preserve the Yeshiva and Mussar movement. All these Gedolim did the best they could, and as a bunch of lay people should remember that our respective leaders are turning in their graves that we are using their names to talk like this. It reminds me of Christians killing Jews in the name of Christ… How could a spiritual endeavor include murder? Or Jihad for that matter.
    n the same vain, arguing like this is defense of you ideology is counterproductive.
    We would work so much better if we were cohesive.
    It reminds me of a saying from the Navy. “ no battleship would ever leave port without a cook. But it will never leave port with ship full of cooks”. All of us and our ideologies are important parts of the equation here.

  • shevers February 18, 2009, 3:31 PM

    TRS: In Israel they sift flour for bugs.

  • Anonymous February 18, 2009, 4:20 PM

    >>In my 30 years in Lubavitch I’ve never heard of or read about the Rebbe speaking disparagingly about any other Jew, let alone Tzadikim. You keep referring to some “famous” comments, I would love to see your sources.

    He called his dissentors shluchim of the samach mem, for goodness sakes. Its on video!

    >>And again, don’t judge the entire group based on the worse cases you can find, I believe that’s how hitler got the antisemitic Europeans to go along with his plans.

    I am not writing about the worst I can find. I can easily find worse. I am merely pointing out my particular problem with Chabad. 1) The Rebbe seemed to dislike non Chabadniks and burin[or, at least thought them incomplete]; 2) The Rebbe did not argue that he was not moshiah and made enough statements which made many people (can so many people be idiots) think he is moshiach; 3) many of his followers, from my experience, have been extremely hateful and intolerance of those who are not chassidish. I find this particularly among Chabad (as opposed everyone else who spends more time, buried in the books–which makes you think: why are they doing outreach if they hate other frum Jews?)

  • TRS February 18, 2009, 5:42 PM

    Shevers: I suppose that’s necessary in third world countries.

  • shevers February 18, 2009, 5:43 PM

    True that. You also have to check your rice and all your beans. It’s really annoying.

  • Phil February 18, 2009, 7:17 PM

    You seem to be stuck on the Rebbe and all his followers being idiots that hate everyone who’s not Chabad, I’m not going to keep trying to convince you otherwise, even though you are totally wrong. It’s a pointless waste of my time.

    BTW, what is samach mem?

  • CA February 19, 2009, 1:35 AM

    You do not have the intellectual gravitas to have a dialogue with someone who is informed and learned.

    You missed the whole point. When an intelligent person comes in with bittul and some legitimate questions, one can debate. Explain. Argue. Present arguments and counter-arguments. Agree to disagree. I have done it before. Even here. For instance, with Phil.

    But when some shvantz comes and insults my Rebbe, there is only one response: “kishen tuches”.

    The same way when someone asks an intelligent question about Israeli policy or some practices of Jewish communities, or some statement in a particular seifer, it’s possible to talk to him. But when an anti-semite comes and says what they say, there is only one way to respond.

    Because sometimes it needs to be said.

    P.S. Intellectual gravitas. I don’t know whether to laugh or… to laugh.

  • CA February 19, 2009, 1:38 AM

    I believe that everyone will know when the true mashiach is here and it’s time to rebuild the bais hamikdash when we don’t have to be “convinced” that he is.

    The true what? A person is not Mashiach until he has fulfilled all the obligations.

  • Mishichist February 19, 2009, 8:39 AM

    Phil
    Instead of goin all miSNAGdish on me qoute me a real scource like Tanya

  • Mishichist February 19, 2009, 8:44 AM

    “Yechi Adonienu Moranu Vrabeinu Melch Hamashiach Lolam Vaed” anyone else that believes anything else is a boring litvak that doent want to get excited about moshiach comin like very soon. “Am yesroel have no fear moshiach will be here this year”.Get a life be excited about somthing

  • Info February 19, 2009, 9:18 AM

    Samech Mem, are the first to letters of the name SMAL, which is one of the names of the Yetzer hara or Sitrah Achrah, which we do not pronounce. The four letters are Samech Mem Aleph Lamed. In other words The Devil

  • Phil February 19, 2009, 9:28 AM

    Mishichist,

    You obviously haven’t learned Rambam very often. He specifically states that in order for someone to be “bechezkas mashiach” he needs to return return ALL Jews to religion and ALL Jews to Israel. Then, ONLY if he rebuilds the bBeis Hamikdah in IT’S place (not 770), we can consider him mashiach vadai.

    The Rebbe quoted this HIMSELF in the Igros to someone that had ask him a similar questions, thereby disproving the entire meshichist fantasy.

    How would you expect the Tanya to address such a ridiculous theory? The Tanya isn’t about halacha at all, it’s about chassidic philosophy and one’s observance.

    As Lubavitchers learn Tanya and Rambam on a daily basis, I’m led to believe that You are a recent BT or someone that simply has never bothered learning anything beyond maybe skimming through a dvar malchus. I suggest you find someone that knows how to learn, sit down with him, and learn something instead of dancing around with a yechi flag and making yourself sound all self righteous, thinking that the louder you sing, the sooner the Rebbe will pop out from under the Bimah in 770.

    Your idea that anyone not subscribing to your stupidity is a boring “litvak”, further prove my point. Wmakes you think litvaks or any other non yechis don’t wait for mashiach?

    FYI, the Alter Rebbe happened to be from Lithuania, you can’t get much more litvak than that,but you probably didn’t know that either.

    At any rate, I’m not going to debate the yechi stupidity with you any further, my suggestion to you is to get educated, use your own head to figure theories out, not act like a sheep and do things because everyone next to you is going it.

  • Phil February 19, 2009, 9:30 AM

    Info / anon,

    Any links to that “famous” video where the Rebbe called the Chazon Ish the devil?

  • Phil February 19, 2009, 9:40 AM

    Benji,

    Ain’t nothing wrong with debating things, as long as we retain respect for each other without hate and insults. The entire gemara is a bunch of people arguing from beginning to end, we are all entitled to our views.

    BTW, we were the first to practice Jihad/ethnic cleansing at the time of Yehoshua. We were commanded to annihilate every inhabitant of Canaan, Amalek, etc, without leaving any survivors, not even women or kids. Sefer Yehoshua goes into the gory details of how they achieved the conquest of Israel.

    Seems like they did a pretty good job too, you don’t find too many black people claiming Israel is theirs, even though we know that most of the inhabitants of Canaan were black.

  • Anonymous February 19, 2009, 10:00 AM

    >>You missed the whole point. When an intelligent person comes in with bittul and some legitimate questions, one can debate. Explain. Argue. Present arguments and counter-arguments. Agree to disagree. I have done it before. Even here. For instance, with Phil.

    No, you missed the entire point. You could not construct a single intelligent argument. All you did is throw ad hominum attacks to divert answering legitamite questions about the Rebbe’s incredible prejudice against those who are not in Chabad (or at least chassidish), his failure to act responsibly with the then expanding meshichist movement, and the overall ignorance of his adherents.

    Phil,

    I appreciate your suggestion that the Rebbe did not hate those who did not follow him and refused objective tochacha from his contemporaies–we can debate that (as my facts suggest otherwise). But with posters like CA, meshichist and others on this thread alone, I find it somewhat incredulous that you would say that Chabadniks are not hateful, even though 99% percent (you are an exception) of my experience with those from Chabad demonstrates otherwise.

  • Anonymous February 19, 2009, 10:01 AM

    >>Intellectual gravitas. I don’t know whether to laugh or… to laugh.

    If only you would get the irony here. You are clearly not in your league. Stop with the ad hominum attacks and learn something. Have some dignity.

  • Anonymous February 19, 2009, 10:03 AM

    >>But when an anti-semite comes and says what they say, there is only one way to respond.

    The rebbe taught you to answer like this. He did the same exact thing when people asked legitamite questions. You cannot handle an environment where people ask legitamite questions, all you have is hate. Since you are not Jewish, there is no anti semetism at play.

  • Anonymous February 19, 2009, 10:14 AM

    You seem to be stuck on the Rebbe and all his followers being idiots

    I never said the Rebbe is an idiot. And I cannot believe so many people in chabad are simply so stupid that they believe the rebbe is moshiach. You made the argument that they are stupid. I made the argument that they are merely following what their rebbe more than tacitly implied.

    >>that hate everyone who’s not Chabad, I’m not going to keep trying to convince you otherwise, even though you are totally wrong.

    I have enough experience with Chabad to know otherwise. Just look at CA and meshichist!

    >>It’s a pointless waste of my time.

    It is not. You simply don’t have a good answer to my questions.

  • Phil February 19, 2009, 10:35 AM

    Anon,

    You’re still lumping us all into one category, namely hateful messianic Jews, which we aren’t. There is now way that 99% of us believe the Rebbe is alive or mashiach, just as there is no way 99% of us are hateful to other groups.

    Do CA and meshichist represent the entire movment? What about all the good Chabad has done worldwide over the past 65 years?

    The Rebbe NEVER said he was moshiach, in fact he denied it openly on more than one occasion. The yechis are the ones that have twisted what he said, and you’re buying into their BS.

    In addition they twist the Rambam, Gemara and any other opposing idea you’ll find, it happens to me all the time. Come up with a legit argument, and it’s either “learn sicha so and so with an open mind” or “oops, look what time it is, I’ve got to run”.

    As far as answering all your questions, I’m no rabbi nor an expert on sichas, mamamrim, tanya, etc. You might want to ask a LEARNED Chabadnick your questions.

    What I can say, is I’ve never encountered any that you mention. Show me one clear sicha where the Rebbe said he was mashiach or one instance where he called the Chazon Ish the devil, and I’ll be more than happy to look into it for you with some local trustworthy people.

  • Anonymous February 19, 2009, 11:01 AM

    >>The Rebbe NEVER said he was moshiach, in fact he denied it openly on more than one occasion.

    I am unaware of a single occassion in which he stated he is not moshiach. I know of several instances where he was upset about his being moshiach was publicized, though. If you can provide my examples, I would be very appreciative.

    >>The yechis are the ones that have twisted what he said, and you’re buying into their BS.

    I do not buy into their BS beliefs. But they seem to be more than just a few thousand loonies, too.

    >>In addition they twist the Rambam, Gemara and any other opposing idea you’ll find, it happens to me all the time.

    Believe me, I know this. I cannot being to tell you how exasperating their their intellectual dishonesty is.

    >> Come up with a legit argument, and it’s either “learn sicha so and so with an open mind” or “oops, look what time it is, I’ve got to run”.

    Exactly.

    >>As far as answering all your questions, I’m no rabbi nor an expert on sichas, mamamrim, tanya, etc. You might want to ask a LEARNED Chabadnick your questions.

    Two “Rabbis” I have encountered turned out to be raving meshichist loonies who could not read a straight line of Rambam or Gemara. Based on what I have read, it seems that Yoel Kahan;s only gripe with meshichists is that they should not publicize their beliefs–not that they believe in things which are untrue. Even Rabbi Krinsky stated that the Rebbe was the most likely candidate for moshiach in his generation. Why he would publicize such a subjective statement is beyond me (I think it quite odd), but that’s a different issue.

    >>What I can say, is I’ve never encountered any that you mention. Show me one clear sicha where the Rebbe said he was mashiach or one instance where he called the Chazon Ish the devil,

    I did not say he called the CI the devil. He merely supported the statement made by a drunk shliach that the CI (who passed on already) is jealous of children in Tomchei Temimim who learn Tanya because he never did. There was some very strong opposition voiced against this ridiculous line. And the rebbe said that there is nothing wrong with it: Souls feel jealousy in shomayim, and since Tanya is the pnimius of Torah, and the Chason Ish now knows the truth, he obviously is jealous of children learning the same. In my opinion, talking this way about someone who knew kol hatorah kulah (but not Tanya–even though he knew other nistar) should not be malinged in the subjective, unsupported theory that only Tanya is the pnimius of Torah. But this was the premises of the Rebbe’s support for this ignorant, evil statement.

    >>and I’ll be more than happy to look into it for you with some local trustworthy people.

    I will try to accomodate you. I appreciate, at the least, your honesty. The other two or three shleppers here can learn a lot from you.

  • Phil February 19, 2009, 11:32 AM

    Anon,

    As far as the Rebbe refuting the idea he was mashiach, I read it in an English version of the Rebbe’s letters, a book called the letter and the spirit. I don’t have it in front of me right now as I’m at my office, but he specifically mentions the Rambam’s ruling that in order for someone to be considered mashiach he has to rebuild the Beis Hamikdash IN IT’S PLACE. To me, that does away with all the twisted, so called “proofs” yechis will bring.

    As far as the Tanya / Chazon Ish statement, it’s the first I’ve heard of it, but it seemingly can make sense. If one were to believe that the Tanya is Torah, knowing that the only instance one is allowed jealousy is when it comes to coveting someone else Torah and mitzvos, one can justify why anyone would say that the Chazon Ish has reason to be jealous of anyone that learned the Tanya, if he in fact never did.

    I don’t think the statement or it’s support eere ment to slight the Chzon Ish in any way, they were likely meant to demonstrate how important Lubavitchers feel the Tanya to be.

    Obviously, some people might take the statement the wrong way, but I can’t believe that it was meant to malign the C.I.

    The devil thing I was referring to was the samach mem thing someone posted earlier…

    Anyway, as I previously mentioned, if you have the time and patience to seek out answers from a qualified/learned rabbi or rav, I’m sure they’ll be more than willing to engage you in any discussion. Don’t lump all Lubavitcher rabbis into the same class as a couple yechi quacks that you met, we still have a few good men out there.

  • Anonymous February 19, 2009, 11:47 AM

    >>one can justify why anyone would say that the Chazon Ish has reason to be jealous of anyone that learned the Tanya, if he in fact never did. I don’t think the statement or it’s support eere ment to slight the Chzon Ish in any way, they were likely meant to demonstrate how important Lubavitchers feel the Tanya to be.

    Imagine if the CI wrote that only the Brisker Rav’s Torah is pnimius hatorah, and since the rebbe never learned the brisker rav’s torah, he is jealous of children who learn the same in cheder.

    Its outrageuous not merely because its a stupid this to write, but because its patently offensive.

    Its not like the CI did not know nistar. He merely did not learn Tanya. To suggest such incompletion to the extent where one would feel jealousy because of a personal notion of what is important–especially when stated in public about an undisputed gadol hador who was no longer in the world and where so many were upset with the comment–was in bad taste, to say the least. The CI got along with everyone–chassidim and non chassidim alike. This was unilateral, and, if you can appreciate how you would feel if the same was said about the rebbe, it was mean.

    I read the exact opposite about the Rebbe. I would be curious for a source, though, as I am always interested in seeing him in a better light. My biggest problems with him is this comment about ths CI, his refusal to accept the notion that other’s disagree with him, and what I believe to be his tacit approval of the suggestion that he is it. If you have facts which give me a better picture, I would be appreciate it.

    If only the meshichists and lowlives like CA can shape up, we would all be in a better world.

  • Phil February 19, 2009, 12:13 PM

    Anon,

    I wouldn’t disagree with your scenario about the Brisker Rav’s Torah. You’re obviously assuming that the Rebbe was not familiar with it, when in fact he very well might have been. Some of his letter quote famous author’s, mathematicians or physicist, politicians, etc, so he just as likely could have been familiar with mussar or other topics Chabad doesn’t teach.

    If there was any area of Torah he never learned, he would probably be jealous of anyone that did learn it, including school kids, especially after his death, because it would then be too late, much the same way we don’t walk in cemetaries with our tztizis out to avoid making the dead “jealous”, even though they might have been tzadikkim during their lifetime.

    As for the letter I’m talking about where he disproves the yechis, I’ll see if I can find it again when I get home tonight. The thing about the book is that it posted the letters almost anonymously, so they don’t have dates or the names or the persons they are addresses to, only the city and country names.

    The book’s title is “The Letter and The Spirit”, translated and arranged by Dr. Nissan Mindel.
    Published by Merkos Linyonei Chinuch.

    I’ll try to find the page number so you can read it for yourself, you’ll have to be patient though, the book has over 600 pages.

  • CA February 19, 2009, 12:45 PM

    Anon,

    Why should I have an intelligent discussion with you if you haven’t taken time to apply your intelligence to understanding what pnimiyus hatorah is and why chabad means what it does? The Rebbe clearly explains the issue.

    Instead, you come here, throw childing insults around and make statements like “not only is [what the Rebbe said] stupid, but most importantly offensive”.

    Whom should I have an intelligent discussion with? With someone who just made this statement? What is this, kindergarten?

    Phil,

    I already gave you a link that explains why you are wrong regarding Rambam.

  • CA February 19, 2009, 12:53 PM

    The point of jealousy is not about having learned “something” (one more vort or one more seifer). It’s not having learned something essential.

    Anybody who thinks that when Chabad considers its teachings essential that’s offensive clearly doesn’t understand… much. Such idiotic thinking can exist only in the modern culture poisoned by liberalism.

    In any event, the Rebbe clearly explains this idea in multiple places, including the famous ma’amor. The idea (essence vs. revelation) is so simple, a six-year-old can understand it.

    But that’s beyond the point. There is no reason to discuss deep points of ideology with an antisemite or a misnaged.

  • shevers February 19, 2009, 1:29 PM

    Everyone shut up! This is getting old.

  • Anonymous February 19, 2009, 1:43 PM

    >>Anybody who thinks that when Chabad considers its teachings essential that’s offensive clearly doesn’t understand… much. Such idiotic thinking can exist only in the modern culture poisoned by liberalism.

    Again, the only thing you seem capable of doing is throwing insults so as to steer away from your glaring lack of substance.

    There is a difference between suggesting something is essential as opposed to divesting a term (pnimius of torah) from its univeral meaning (i.e., nistar) and applying it solely to one thing–Tanya and using that new definition to insult one of the great leaders of the generation who was otherwise fine in the arena of pnimius hatorah.

    This is my point. Its suble, so I can understand if you don’t get it. But to quote a certain non-Jew in connection with a percieved insult:

    “Whom should I have an intelligent discussion with? With someone who just made this statement? What is this, kindergarten?”

    Just to facilitate your rather poor reading comprehension: I did not write, “not only is [what the Rebbe said] stupid, but most importantly offensive.” I was applying my standard so as to explain why the Rebbe’s position it so disturbing. Instead of getting it, you thought I was actually insulting the Rebbe, which, as I was attempting to demonstrate, is exactly what the Rebbe did to the Chazon Ish. Now that we are on the same page, I hope you can begin to comprehend where I am coming from.

    >>The idea (essence vs. revelation) is so simple, a six-year-old can understand it.

    Judging from your reasoning ability, I assume you mean that if you understand it, a six year old can, too. This is probably correct. But essence vs. revelation is a bit more sophisticated than you are representing it.

    Calling a Jew an antisemite or misnaged demonstrates the paucity of your thinking and substance. After watching the Rebbe’s conversation with Rav Kahana, I can understand how it is that the Rebbe taught you such behavior. But it shows how you are simply way over your head in this conversation.

    You can claim to sincerely believe what you purport to believe (which, based on your behavior, is not so clear), bur to pretend to act in the vile, corrupt manner you are demonstrating only further hurts the message you claim to believe in. All you are showing is desparate hate and ignorance.

  • Mishichist February 19, 2009, 5:59 PM

    “the Rambam’s ruling that in order for someone to be considered mashiach he has to rebuild the Beis Hamikdash IN IT’S PLACE “who says he won’t once he’s resurrected, also even if the rebbe said point blank he wasn’t moshiach is not a proof that he’s not. Who’s the rebbe to say he’s not moshiach, maybe once he got to shomayim the haylaga abishter told him he was.
    By the way I take paticular offence to anyone that says Lubobs are those drunk homeless jews that try to convince goyim to put on tefillin. Give us a break if we’re wasted in smirnoff how are we supposed to tell the difference between a goy and a jew

  • Mishichist February 19, 2009, 6:06 PM

    By the way when the rebbe comes to save us.I hope he blows the shofar so loud that all you skeptiks will be ashamed of yourself

  • CA February 19, 2009, 6:08 PM

    LE7, amein.

  • CA February 19, 2009, 6:10 PM

    Anon, want to learn something? E-mail me. This is pointless.

  • Phil February 19, 2009, 7:28 PM

    Anon, CA, Mishichist,

    I found the letter that answers all the issues at once, it’s on page 273 of the Rebbe letter in English from the book I mentioed on the previous post.

    I’m quoting word for word from the English translation (Dr. Nissan Mindel), the Rebbe is expanding on the ruling of the Rambam hil Melachim, ch 11:

    Start quote:
    We see clearly that even after he induces ALL of the Jewish people to walk in the path of Torah, etc., it may be ASSUMED that he is Mashiach, but it is not certain, and it could in fact turn out that he is not. In other words, there is still a possibility that even this event will not spell the end of Galut. As a mater of fact, Rambam mentions in the previous Halacha the fact that there was a time in Jewish history when it appeared that Mashiach had arrived, in the person of Shimon ben Kuziba, yet it later became quite clear that he was not. ONLY WHEN – as the Rambam says – he will build the sanctuary in it’s place and will gather the disperesed of Israel, ONLY THEN will it be certain that HE is Mashiach beyond all doubt.
    End quote.

    If this doesn’t clear both issues up, namely the fact that the Rebbe clearly points out that he is NOT Mashiach, and that from the Shimon be Kuziba analogy we see that Mashiach must be a live person, I don’t know what would. To al that feel otherwise, you are either contradicting or misinterpreting a clear ruling from the Rambam quoted and confirmed directly by the Rebbe ZTL.

  • CA February 19, 2009, 11:32 PM

    Phil,

    What do you think mishichistim mean when they say the Rebbe “is” Mashiach? Do you think Mishichistim believe that if you disobey the Rebbe’s wishes, you’re liable to death penalty (as you would be if you disobeyed a king’s wishes)?

    It all depends on definition of “is”. 🙂 When people say that the Rebbe is Mashiach, they mean he is Mashiach of the generation, i.e., the person most fit to take the role of Mashiach when the time comes (because through his efforts the geula will iy”H happen — albeit after his physical departure).

    What does “it may be assumed he is Mashiach” mean? What are the consequences of this “assumption”? You take me on a fishing tour, I think it’s safe to assume you know how to fish. It may turn out you don’t — but until I have reason to believe otherwise, I will treat you like an expert fisherman based on the evidence.

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