I was thinking just the other day about women in shul, well I am always thinking about women in shul, but this was different. First of all I wasn’t even in shul, I was driving somewhere in Oklahoma, and second of all I was thinking about it from a completely different perspective that I have never focused on before. The exact thought was something along the lines of “how come I never hear women clopping the bench in front of them to remind people in the women’s section to say morid hatal or insert yaale vayavo?”
A novel thought indeed, and then in the style that my brain thinks I started pondering a bunch of different similar scenarios of which I have no idea about because for all my time spent in women’s sections, both imaginary and real time, I never spent enough time during davening to actually get a clear picture of what goes in there.
From a man’s vantage point, the women’s section looks like lame and dull. Women stand and sway gently with their siddurs held up to their faces like anywhere else, probably blocking out the stares of the men who are bored. Why do women hold their siddurs up like that anyway, I have pondered that women and men hold their siddurs completely differently. Men hold them lower then women, and men tend to use their fingers as bookmarks while women do not.
But besides for their lack of siddur bookmarking, and their peaceful sways rather then shuckels, I do wonder if all is cheery on the other side of the mechitza. For instance, in shuls where the mechitza is merely a cinderblock wall with a small hole for only those in the front to see or hear what is going on, are there women who appoint themselves as the gabbai of the women’s section? How else are they to hear about random insertions and whether or not to say tachnun on that day? Are there many women who clop for shmona esray insertions?
I wonder if there exist women who daven and mumble loudly when they start certain prayers to make sure everyone around them hears. Men have loads of mumblers, usually to mumble things like hemelech hakadosh or show off how fast they made it to modiim. Do women even daven fast; I always pictured women as davening really slowly with loads of kavannah in some sing song type of way.
Maybe I should have just made this post into a query into the ways women daven. I am also curious if women clop their chests hardly for silach lanu or viduy, what if people with implants clop hardly enough? Do their breasts explode? What if your hand bounces off and hits you or another woman in the face? Clopping for women could be dangerous it seems.
I have written about the characters in shul many times, do women’s sections have their own characters? I know of the traditional old single ladies, the yenta and the self appointed official shul shadchun, but there must be those reappearing characters that we men aren’t privy to while we hock up at the bimah.
I do wonder if the service were led by women, what would be different. I sure as hell know kedusha would go on forever with the singing, but would things be all that different, oh and I am not talking about conservative or reform or feel good egalitarian flavor of the week Judaism. I am wondering what an orthodox prayer service led by women would look like, of course they would have the nebach single girl do gelila and the tall buff women with 13 kids do hagba. Who would be the bimah hockers? Would they correct mistakes in laining or would they take the reader aside for a therapeutic session/lesson on laining? Wait a second, has anyone ever witnessed a women correcting laining mistakes from behind the mechitza, I can imagine a whole write up about it in Yeshiva World News. “Women corrects man during laining, Rabonim thinking of banning women from shul.”
How much do you women like those one way mirror mechitzas? They have one here in Dallas at Ohr Torah and I am always wondering if the women are even davening or just picking out hunky guys to critique, you really can’t tell. Or is my imagination just running wild to the point that I think women are having pillow fights and tearing off each others sheitles and doilies in the women’s section when all they are doing is coming late, unloading the kiddies and then talking about the latest cookbook from Suzy Fishbein.
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{ 36 comments… read them below or add one }
Women can’t hold their siddurim in front of their chests as they wouldn’t be able to see the words. Flatchested ones play along as they are self conscious.
They probably have to clap under the breast, clapping an erogenous has already been banned buy the chumra police, as they might not clap hard enough, thereby stimulating themselves during davening.
Only butch women or women over 65 can apply for power positions in shul, any pretty women would be too much of a risk of pritzus, frivolity, possibly lesbianism.
One way mirror mechitza? Are these guys for real? WTF is the point? Maybe they should get those mirros like they have at the amusement parks, the kind that will make one guy really fat, one skinny, one with a big head etc.
what i always wonder is why women bow during lecha dodi – they bow at the first _Boeei_ “Boeei V’Shalom” while men just bow at the final two mentions of Boeei – “Boeei kallah, Boeei kallah”.
Has anyone else noticed that? It’s really odd – all the women start bowing at the start of the stanza while the men don’t.
ok stop peeking.
My wife tells me that women nurse.
I have no problem with that, just keep your eyes on your side.
Women don’t clop their breasts. That would actually be rather painful. We clop a little higher or towards the center of the chest (which is closer to where the heart is, anyway.)
Try davening at a frum egal minyan sometime (there are few, but they exist) and you’ll see that davening traits (fast, slow, enthusiastic, calm, etc.) pretty evenly distribute themselves between the genders. (Admittedly, there is a preponderance of “slow, mindful” davening in the non-Orthodox community, but it’s not divided by gender.)
Terpy — in Jerusalem, everyone bows at the first ???? ????? as well as ???? ???.
Argh — why doesn’t Hebrew show up in the comments? I meant to write that in Jerusalem everyone bows at the first bo’i veshalom as well as the two mentions of bo’i khallah.
The women’s section is loaded with its own set of “characters” – one I can think of off the bat is the “Children’s Librarian”: the one who has a whole stash of kiddie books to keep the young ‘uns sitting quietly in their seats.
There’s also the “Sonic Boom Whisperer”: She’s the one that moves her seat closer to her friend during the Rabbi’s speech and proceeds to whisper at such a high decibel level about her recent trip to Baltimore and her mother’s incontinence that a few men approach her with comments and suggestions after the services.
I see women bowing at bo’i vshalom all the time, and never understood it. After that I feel awkward bowing at bo’i kallah – all alone.
I hold my siddur low and do the bookmarking – but I guess it’s true that most women daven slower. Although if I want to say kedusha w everyone else, I have to speed up the shmona esray. Which I hate. (the speeding up, not the tfila). Why do men have to daven so quickly??
And about the one way mirror mechitze – I would love to have one of those at my shul. Unfortunately we don’t and won’t.
Oh, and I correct laining pretty often, or at least used to.
Few weeks ago this lady gave me a look of shock, so now I correct laining in my head, silently. (some women really dislike me, so now I’m trying to repress my chutzpa)
We are all in our panties and bras having “silent” pillow fights. The loud “AMEN” you hear is when someone gets a good whack in the face by a pillow. Then we all start to make out once the pillow fight is over.
That’s a lot of questions.
First of all, we don’t have so much “extra reading” going on. Now that I have a front row seat, I see lots of men are busy with parsah sheets, books and magazines. Even the parsha sheets are rare upstairs. Maybe because many of the women come in later and want to make up the dovening. Or is it that if they find the dovening boring, they just don’t come.
There less, lots let talking upstairs. Maybe because I shush everyone, or maybe because it’s so crowded, we can’t walk around a be social.
boobs get in the way of holding your siddur lower…..
and we’re basically just talking throughout….
very few women actually daven the entire time!
Usually the women are talking…. daydreaming…
Women in shul on a tachnun day? Ummm… besides me?
We have this old lady who comes on Sundays and legal holiday Mondays. She corrects people and always tells me where we are… and I think where was she 2 years ago when I *needed* her? I think she would correct a laining mistake. No one seems to like her… I get that, “oh, her” when I mention her.
Some women choose the shul by the mechitzah. “I’m too schtark to daven behind that tiny mechitzah,” and the feminist but still Ortho like a smaller mechitzah.
Maybe it’s just me, but I think we hold our books like that because it’s easier. Siddurim are heavy! Also it gives you a nice feeling of privacy and keeps you focused because you close off your peripheral vision.
Depends on the shul but most I’ve been to, either women are davening or they’re just staring at everyone else’s clothes and sheitels.
The over exuberant sem girls are my favorite. (Probably bc I live amongst them…) Some do some really intense wriggly bowing on Shmona Esrei, and there’s this other thing (I don’t know how long this has been around) where the girls are like, super overenunciating. You can’t hear them daven, but they look like they’re concentrating more on their lips than the words they’re saying. Does anyone else know what I’m talking about?
“The over exuberant sem girls are my favorite” You mean the ones that flipped out because everyone else was doing it? They are my favorite as well.
Chava I have always wondered that as well – women always bow at boi vshalom.
You know. The siddur positioning is purely based on these thoughts, “Why is that guy on the other side stairing at me? Does he think I can’t see him? He’s bald and 40. I’m 18. What is he thinking? You know other people can see you!!! And yet he stairs on. Here, look at the siddur. Isn’t that pretty?! I swear, next time I come to shul, I’m wearing all black, right down to the floor. Ok ok. I have to focus on davening.” 2 minutes later, “My G-d. Who is this guy? Why isn’t that cute guy next to him looking? Ahhhh. What is with this!?”
whoa. ‘in addition’ has it to a t.
I don’t go to shul every week and I like to hit up different shuls sometimes.
~ I really can’t stand the MO Suburban shul because everyone looks at my covered elbows and judges me as being holier-than-thou. Ironically, most of the kids from this shul are flipped-out and think my neckline is too low.
Therefore, I am both too frum and not frum enough.
~ I like Chabad because everyone tries to mekarev me and offer me siddurim, chumashim and shabbos invitations. Also, the dress code is simple and I can daydream about bearded men.
~ I always worry when I travel, because its hard to peg how you should dress upon the initial foray into a foreign shul. Usually a black dress, long enough to be considered cocktail-length and with hair plain is a safe bet. Except this one time in Israel, where I was the city zonah for the day.
~ I almost never shuckle or sway during shemonah esray because then I get wobbly if I’m wearing heels and I once tumbled over.
~ I like to freak people out by encouraging dancing during Kabbolos Shabbos, a throwback to my Carlebach days (thats a lie, these are stil Carlebach days.)
~ Those mirror mechitzas are ridiculous and should be banned. I once thought there was a mirror mechitza and was gaping across the mechitza and was then notified it was just glass and everyone thought I was scoping for fellas. (I was, but didn’t want everyone to know.)
good article. loving the responses.
I always thought it depended on the shul (but not necessarily on how frum the shul is). In some, they mainly chat and do a little davening, and in some vice versa.
There’s also the “Conveniently Deaf/Blind Mother”, who *somehow* doesn’t notice that her children are running around screaming like crazy fools during the quieter sections of the service. Everybody turns around to stare at her and she doesn’t even notice the stares, much less her kids obnoxious behavior.
So I never knew about the finger-as-a-placeholder until I started reading this website. I’ve tried once or twice since, but it seems to hurt my finger! I think women might tend to have more delicate fingers or something? I dunno, but I didn’t find it to be very comfy.
@ipitythefoo- yes! I have also almost lost my balance in heels if I’m not careful! now *that* would be embarrassing :-\
There’s usually one person at my shul who makes sure everyone knows where they are. She’s always turning around, looking for lost or confused eyes. She’s the helper.
There’s the old woman who always says the kaddish — every week, without fail, kinda loudly … not sure why.
There are those who do as the men and mumble.
For me? I daven the whole time, no lie. I don’t chit or chat or do anything but what I’m there to do. Social hour is after shul.
K
there’s this other thing (I don’t know how long this has been around) where the girls are like, super overenunciating. You can’t hear them daven, but they look like they’re concentrating more on their lips than the words they’re saying. Does anyone else know what I’m talking about?
Oh yes… we have one of those… I think sometimes they’re hoping to pick up a guy with that.
Usually the guy’s section is loud enough that if the women want to pay attention, they can. No need for a female gabbai.
As for “whether or not to say tachnun that day”… chances are, if a woman is davening in a shul on a non-Shabbos/Yom Tov day, they’re probably frum/knowledgeable enough to know whether to say tachnun that day. Only time I davened in a shul during a non-Shabbos/Yom Tov was during shiva week, and had my public shiva time in the shul afterwards.
As for the characters… I’m the most familiar with campus Chabad houses. On the women’s side… there’s:
The Greeter – often the Rebbetzin, unless she’s preparing food, in which case it’s the Bubbe of the Shul (see below).
The Shusher – not as common in campus chabad houses as in community shuls.
The Bubbe of the Shul – The only one (other than the Rebbetzin) that can get away with calling the Rabbi “cute”.
The L’cha Dodi Girls – These are the girls that get up and form a circle to dance (in the process, guilting the other women into dancing too) while on the other side of the mechitza, the Rabbi has all the guys in the jumping huddle-dance-circle.
The Serious Daveners – These girls arrive singly (unless they have a boyfriend/fiance/husband on the other side of the mechitza that they arrived with), and greet each other silently during davening, perhaps with a whispered “Good Shabbos!/Shabbat Shalom!” between paragraphs if it’s during one of the permitted speaking times. They are present both Friday night and Saturday morning, and they sit in the first two rows.
The Social Girls – If it’s Friday night, they arrive in packs. If it’s Saturday, they’re usually not around. They seem to split their time equally between davening and talking amongst themselves. They sit in the back.
The Exactly-Too-Late girls – These girls come at the exact end of davening, just in time for the meal Friday night. They also often arrive in packs.
The Saturday Kitchen Girls – These girls help the Rebbetzin cook. They follow the Rebbetzin into the shul proper during the important parts of davening (e.g., Kedusha, Hagbah). A few go back and forth between Serious Daveners and Saturday Kitchen Girls.
I’ve never seen the extra bow for bo’i v’shalom on the women’s side at my shul (or any other Chabad shul I’ve been to)… maybe it’s something Chabad hasn’t picked up?
the bowing thing at bo’i v’shalom is just so odd. i always think about it. the men are just starting to stand up and turn around, and the women are bowing furiously at bo’i v’shalom. admitidly, i do on occassion see men doing it too, but the women have it as their little minhag.
We hold it up high because it’s easier to see.
And a lot of chatting goes on. Except when the shushers are there.
I just thought about this … but is there something about taking REALLY BIG STEPS when doing the shmonei esrei that makes you super holy or something? There are a couple women at my shul who take GIGANTIC steps … like … schlep the entire length of the women’s sectoin.
Not at all what you (or I) might fantasize about.
All I know about to women’s section is this: When it comes to the sweet and heavy booze at Chabad, it’s good to know a girl if you are wanting any of it during Chagim…
When I was a kid, my grandmother and the other shul ladies would never get past the womens’ cloakroom. My grandmother certainly was not lacking in either faith or knowledge. She was a great kibitzer, however, and had davened at home before coming to the shteible. In those days (the late 50s and early 60s), kids were not in shul unless they were male and going to daven seriously. There were no kids running around, raising hell.I am sure that in a larger community shul where the range of observance was greater that this might not have been the case.
I am always struck by shuls that have either a waist-high mechitzah or a mechitzah so open that you can be sitting in the men’s section and be aware of who is sitting where on the women’s side without any effort. I won’t daven at a shul that has an absurdly low mechitzah, and I have also walked out when the local minhag is to provide only a token barrier.
Dovid,
Interesting you mentioned this. I was wondering on what the halachic ramifications of davening in a place without a valid mechitza are. Turns out, according to even the most lenient opinions, it is assur to daven their, even if it means missing a minyan to the point where it even overrides shofar on Rosh Hashana.
The most lenient opinion is that of R. Moshe Feinstein ZTL, who says you need an opaque machitza at least shoulder height at minimum, preferably something that blocks men from seeing women completely. Women however, are allowed to see men.
If a woman comes to shul dressed untznius where men can see her, it is completely forbidden for men to daven there. Futhermore, if a married women comes in with her hair
uncovered, it also becomes a problem of ervah.
Funny enough, the M.O shul I daven at on Friday night, seems to have an invalid mechitza according to what I’ve just read. However, I have seen prominent chassidic rabbis davening there. Go figure. I’ll have to see what they say about it.
Here are some links to a couple interesting articles regarding this topic:
http://torahsearch.com/page.cfm/1963
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/289939/jewish/Rosh-Hashanah.htm
PS. I’m not the author of this article…
I understand that halachikly it’s more problematic for the men. After being in Israel almost 40 years, I’m shocked anew each time I go to NY and have to sit in those round open farcial and faux “ezrat nashim.”
There’s one shul that gets on my nerves for somethng else. Just as Torah reading is about to begin the rabbi orders everyone to sit. I guess he never learned the halacha to stand for the blessing. Of course I stand; why should I listen to him?
Batya- I believe the shul you are referring to is Manhattan’s famous “Wink ‘n Stare”.
We have one woman at the Chabad shul I frequent… about 65 years old who wears a bukharian kippah, black pant jogging suits, and sings loudly at every chance she gets (I’m secretly amused by this rebel.) Last shabbos she argued with the rabbi when he publically announced that he was confused about why the Blessing of the Sun didn’t happen 3 days before Rosh Hashana (I’ll giggle about that part later.) The rest of the women are rather boring and are mostly just trying to keep the kids from running amok while keeping up in their siddurs.
Phil, about the ”funhouse mirror mechitza” idea: obviously, you haven’t been in some of the shuls I’ve davened in. Not necessary!
I’ve never seen a mirror mechitza anywhere, let alone go on the women’s side of one.