I apologize but this is one of those times I felt like posting something serious
Should someone like myself daven at one specific shul and be part of one community? Or should I daven at multiple shuls and diversify my portfolio so to speak?
This was the discussion I had with a chabad Rabbi over the weekend. We were chatting and I mentioned that I enjoyed going to different shuls all the time and that sticking to one shul, in my mind, was boring and a drag. He not only disagreed – he dived into an all out philosophical discussion on why he hates people like me.
He said that the shul is a community and in Judaism you must join one community and stick to it, I firmly disagreed saying that in Judaism there is no “right” derech and therefore it was good that there was so much choice in terms of shuls or communities to be a part of.
If someone were to ask what I “considered” myself, I couldn’t really say. While I like certain aspects of chabad philosophy including their open door policy, I don’t like many aspects and couldn’t say I would ever become chabad. Then again I probably agree most with real modern orthodoxy like that practiced by the Rav. But still I like many aspects of a more yeshivish derech and on the other end I also like many ideals in open orthodoxy or more progressive orthodox movements.
I don’t understand how I would be detrimental to myself by being a part of multiple communities, if you were to even say each shul is a community unto itself. Many people like the davening at one shul and they like the siurim at another – does this make them bad?
Thoughts and comments:
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No, but it’s confusing. A person needs a derech.
I would always see kids in Israel who were just floating around. They didn’t know what group they belonged to. The took on minhagim from fifty different groups… it’s just plain confusing.
A person needs a path. (I typed bath at first. People need baths too).
I would agree with this rabbi outside of NYC, but in places like Brooklyn, Queens, and Manhattan, it’s just too convenient to pick and choose your shuls. I guess this Chabad rabbi would hate many of the people in these locales.
I think once you have a family, you need a specific derech, or your kids will just get confused, or even the message that nothing really matters, because it’s a pick and choose religion. Yes, everyone is pick and choose to some extent, but at some point you have to define yourself a little more than “I’m a cholent, love me or leave me”. I tend to have people from different walks of life at my Shabbos table to show my kids, yes there is diversity, and yes ahavas Yisroel comes first. But they know my minhagim and where I stand. And yes, it’s fine to shul hop, as long as you have one you feel is really yours.
There’s a difference between floating around and having one shul for weekday Shachris, another for Shabbos and another for weekday Mincha/Maariv. And those who move around based on the kiddush offereing are the worst of all.
I’m with you, part of what I find so appealing about Judaism is the multitude of paths and minhagim. If you take in what works for you, and are able to differentiate, then you can take what’s beautiful and leave what’s not. What leads to the wanders mentioned, especially in Israel, is when a person can’t differentiate between the minhagim that work for them, and those that don’t, but they adopt because their friends did…or because they met a guy on Ben Yehuda who did it that way…or whatever.
You have to be discerning enough to know what works for you. And I haven’t met a Rabbi yet who could do that for you…
Picking a derech and davening at a shul are two different things. A derech is important. A consistent goal keeps things from going crazy and contradicting themselves. When you’re moving in one direction, you can actually accomplish something, be it in ruchnius or anything else.
Then again I know plenty of Lubavitchers that daven at ashkenaz shuls and there are plenty of snags that daven daily in my chabad house.
By the way, don’t say the yechniks are a reason not to join chabad. Every single group without exception has its extremists and/or mishigoyim. The only difference is ours happen to be the loudest.
Well, since I’m not Jewish I probably don’t know what I’m talking about as far as shul is concerned, but it seems to me that there would be at least some similarity between your rabbi and a pastor of a church. That’s who is your spiritual leader, the person who prays for you and the person who would be concerned if he didn’t see you at the service. There’s a big difference between “wow, he’s not here, I wonder what’s wrong” and “well, he’s not here, who knows where he is.”
I also don’t really know how each shul is financially supported, but I have to wonder how each one would make it without regular, committed members.
But what do I know.
Judaism is not about picking and choosing. Sure, some people do get this opportunity, but it’s not really a good thing. You’ve got to pick something and stick to it, because otherwise where will you be? If you use every groups’ heterim, are you still frum?
I think you have to find what works for you. If davening at only one place seems boring, then your davening will suffer from it. That’s obviously not a good thing. You need to find the place which won’t bore you.
My reason not to join Chabad has nothing to do with the yechinicks – its more of the general consensus about diefying the Rebbe and that goes with most chassidic groups. I also don’t agree with the whole predetermined concept of tzadik, beinoni and rasha.
Never say don’t shul hop to someone brought up on the UWS, we were kiddush hopping kings, but it was acceptable to daven at shul and then go to another just for the kiddush.
Homeschool mom, I understand where you are coming from. I have close friends who are not Jewish, so allow me to explain.
First of all, in a shul, every man reads from a prayer book and prays on his own. There is someone who leads the prayers – to make sure everyone is up to the same place – but the spiritual leader (A.K.A. Rabbi) does not pray for the people, but directs the services. Every shul has its own mini-customs, and the spiritual leader (A.K.A. Rabbi) makes sure they are followed.
The problem arises when people are married and sometimes need marriage counseling. If a person prays at a different shul every day, then the Rabbi doesn’t get to really know the person, and it’s hard for a Rabbi to counsel a total stranger.
In my opinion, I think exposure to different customs is a good thing, but having one Rabbi is important when one is having a crisis.
You know what they say Hesh…there are only two kinds of Jews, Lubavitchers and those who aren’t yet Lubavitcher.
But seriously, it doesn’t bother me that you don’t want to be a Lubavitcher. Why should I care? The main thing is to find a place where you feel comfortable. Heck, in CH there are about thirty Shuls/shtieblach/minyanim; sure, they’re all Lubavitch, but they each have their unique flavor, and each has its own set of baalebaatim. Obviously people will go to different ones for Kiddushim and whatnot, but they have their set place.
Lefi anias daati, I think this to be a good thing. Everyone needs a place they can call their own, a place they feel comfortable.
I’m not sure what name I’d give to my derech. Like you, Hesh, I feel attracted to lots of different parts of lots of different things. All I know is that through experience, I’ll refine what I like, and even though I won’t know anything more than “It’s my own”, I’ll know that it holds truth.
Now, there is an undercurrent to go and choose a Rabbi and hold by him in all things, halachically. I suppose this is backed up by the tendency for “The Law” to follow Rabbi Such-and-Such in the Talmud in all matters of Such-and-Such.
But, there are always exceptions. Shammai doesn’t always loose. Sometimes, the truth – the real, legal, religious truth we’re searching for – goes beyond the simple boundaries delineated by a category or a person.
I have a Rabbi I am close to that I ask questions to and he is Lubavitch,
The rebetzin I ask questions to is an old school Solevatchik/chofetz chaim type of women
“Sometimes, the truth – the real, legal, religious truth we’re searching for – goes beyond the simple boundaries delineated by a category or a person.”
And how the heck are you planning on finding the truth? Every Jewish group claims that it has the truth.
Hesh,
Shulchan Aruch specifically says some great things about people that have a set place to daven everyday, which would imply sticking to the same shul. Of course, nothing would stop one from davening Chabad every morning and Kollel every evening.
I personally enjoy the diversity of different shuls, we have a huge variety in walking distance of my house. I bring the kids too, to show them that there actually is a world outside of the Lubavitch yeshiva they attend. I lust make sure that any shul I daven in has Tehillas Hashem siddurs, as they are what I’m used to.
Occasionaly, even the Ashkenaz shuls will ask me to be chazzan, at which point I’m forced to switch siddurim. Only place it hasn’t happened to me yet is at the Sephardi shul, still haven’t decided as to if I would switch my accent to accomodate them.
TRS –
Switching from shul to shul doesn’t have to mean that you’re looking for heterim, it simply means you might enjoy the diverse religious / cultural experience of seeing / feeling different Jews daven.
From my experience, the Chabad shuls I attend have the least respectful people when it comes to talking during devening, leining, etc., which I find extremely hypocritical. Here are guys that won’t let their kids into my house because we have a TV, or won’t let their kids eat from my BBQ unless they bring their own meat because I eat Satmar and Belz shechita as well as Lubavitch. Yet these same morons have no problem cracking jokes or talking business during davening, chazaras hashatz and leining, something explicitly forbidden by the Alter Rebbe in both the Shulchan Aruch and the siddur, as well as many other sources.
Phil: Point #1-it specifically says in Sefer Minhagim that the Lubavitch minhag is to daven our nusach as chazzan, even when you’re being chazzan in a shul that doesn’t daven our nusach. I’m not making this up.
Point #2- Yes, Lubavitch has issues, as does everyone else, but I’m not particularly interested in getting into them right now.
Ok this blog will be closed if you chabadnicks start bickering – I wanted it to be a friendly not a crazy discussion- that is for the next post.
I understand if I can’t fight with snags, but I can’t even fight with my fellow chassidim? what is this world coming to?
Oh come on Hesh, it’s so fun when we duke it out.
Okay, so I don’t do so much duking… but I have.
Have…what?
I have duked it out a few times on this here fine blog. That’s what.
just a little clarification of the Tanya comment above. tzaddik is the only “fixed” category. benoni and rasha are totally open to all applicants.
i for one would say that shul hopping could be considered your community of you keep hopping to the same shuls, no?
i considered temporarily switching communities for a couple of months in the summer while my shul brought in shabbos early.
Well, beinoni and rasha are virtually the same thing.
Jew Lookin’ – Yeah yeah keep talking, you’re not leaving us any time soon.
Although the early Shabbos thing was pretty crappy… if they pull that again last minute this year I might join you. Shall it be Lake or WITS?
wha’??????
benoni and rasha are at least different enough to make it virtutually impossible for ME to switch categories.
i would emphatically (big word, eh?) disagree with them being even close to the same thing.
Yes, early Shabboses stink royally.
shevers….i was thinking west siiiiddde just to hit the point home. plus, i think lake brings in early too.
Hesh,
I envy you this luxury problem of many places to choose from.
Every rasha has the potential to become a beinoni, while not every rasha has the potential to become a tzaddik. Therefore, rasha=beinoni. Anyway, it’s your job, don’t tell me you can’t do it.
….plus, i live on the WITS block anyway…i might already be a member for all i know.
West Side for sure would be the biggest insult.
But you don’t live on the WITS block. Lake is on your block.
while you are right that a rasha can become a benoni that doesn’t make them the same. the “same” person can become a benoni. the midos of the benoni and the rasha don;t have to be any different. but when a person acts as a benoni he/she is very very different….on the action level. and only a potential tzaddik can become a tzaddik, no rasha can “become” a tzaddik…a rasha can only hope at benoni.
the WITS peeps are concentrated on my block. we are surrounded.
True.
But at least they sing in key which if more than I can say for the Lubavitchers….
I’d rather sit on your block hearing the snags sing zmiros on Sukkos than sit on a Lubav concentrated block…
Learn your Tanya again missy. A beinoni can certainly slay his yetzer hora. Doesn’t happen often, as the Alter Rebbe says, that a beinoni can wonder why he can’t make that big leap, but perhaps his avodah is to struggle on eternally, and this is what G-d wants?
Anyway yeah, sure, a beinoni in action is very different from a rasha, but they’re essentially the same. They both have a yetzer hora, they both struggle.
Snag zemiros are like funeral dirges.
we just kept quiet on sukkos.
i think it’s hilarious to be at the shabbos table…staring into their kitchen cause the windows just happen to line up…and talking for waaaaay to long about how they have entemanns, and what type of entemanns it might be, and what type of entemanns we would eat first if we “could” etc etc…..
and that’s why i am stuck at benoni.
I’m sorry, but I totally missed that. What does entemanns (what is entemanns anyway) have to do with being a beinoni?
Your windows line up? DUDE! You have to invite me over more often.
Entemanns are ou-d baked goods you can buy in the grocery stores.
i’ll definately check up on that benoni to tzaddik point. i’ve never heard that.
but even if possible a true benoni is so rare in itself that the benoni turning tzaddik has to be like…..even way more rare than rare…times a trillion (i was trying to come up with a real word but gave up)
So she’s a rasha, not a beinoni.
So are you. So am I.
Of course a beinoni is rare. To us they look like tzaddikim, because they do the same thing. Anyway, Lubavitchers aren’t into labeling. Go learn your Tanya and then do something good to bring the messiah. Focusing on what I or you or your odd Milwaukee friends are doesn’t accomplish jack.
we don’t eat these delicious ou-d entemanns baked goods so instead we dwell on them for way too long. in thought (yum), speech (a whole shabbos table convo), and action (mostly in the speech and drooling categories.)
that’s one big reason i can;t even talk about becoming a benoni….among many others….let’s not blame entemanns….or taco bell…..or soft serve…..
This is a more pointless conversation than what transpires on your blog.
Jew Looker: It must be tough being you. I mean, you can’t do it, you don’t do it, what’s the issue?
Shevers: Is that a compliment or something?
lubovitchers are sooooo into labeling. we are so into labeling that we label ourselves “non-labelers.”
and calling a yid “odd” is also labeling.
Yeah what do you mean Lubavitchers aren’t into labeling?
We totally label everyone and everything.
this is something i never learned in tanya…blogging all day and night brings moshiach. duh….wow…..and to think, if i had listened to some yeshiva kid with tsnius issues and the internet….we could have left golus like, last week.
Lubavitchers are not into labeling because we treat everyone like dreck.
Who said blogging brings the messiah? And who said it doesn’t? The Rebbe always taught us to use every tool Hashem put into this world to serve Him.
not if you have money.
ok…..i’m done bashing.
Sure we treat ‘em like dreck, just not to their face.
Oh but it was so fun.
hey, you;re the one who said to go out and bring moshiach. you ain’t bringing moshiach typing all day on your mommy and tati’s dime.
when the rebbe talked about using technology i’m pretty sure he didn’t mean sitting morning and evening on this blog and that blog, talking with your chick pals, calling people odd….
that’s not directed to you shevers…although you could get off the ‘puter once in a while too. at least go to florida or something.
You don’t think blogging can bring the messiah? Just last week my blog got some girl to keep Kosher. That was pretty cool.
And yeah, sure, I’m not perfect, but who is?
Didn’t Hesh say he was going to close the comments if we started bickering?
i used to live in a community where everyone would go to chabad on purim, to orthodox on shabes, and then turns out they lived with a shiksa
The only part I don’t get is the Shabbos bit…
Dude, I get off the computer on Shabbos. That’s some real mesirus nefesh right there.
Incredible you are.
that is exactly the point, trs. not many people are..or can act…perfectly. so when i say i am a rasha through and through that is just a realsitic perspective on life at hand rather than an invitation to bash.
Heaven forfend I should bash you!? I would never bash the wife of a Packers fan!
But yes, you can be a beinoni. You can never sin, and only do Mitzvos. Saying otherwise is kefira.
curfew time, kiddos. say your bedtime shema and get some daylight tomorrow, k?
Just ’cause you’re married doesn’t mean you can say that.
Yeah, us owls work best at night!
no, it’s because i’m old and also because i can’t believe i’ve been on the ‘puter this long that i can say that.
ok….have….to…..turn…..off…..
I think it’s all about knowing what you believe in and what you don’t and that’s YOUR derech. It doesn’t have to be one that’s already made (like the Lubavitch derech, or Modern Orthodox one, ect).
What you believe in and what you don’t? Who are you to decide what is a good belief and what isn’t? You think you’re Moses or something? The Torah isn’t about picking and choosing, it’s a package deal. At Har Sinai G-d didn’t offer three or fours combo deals-he gave you all 613.
I came back to this post to see 73 comments. That was unexpected so quickly.
And then I notice it’s these same 3 Lubavitchers arguing. Again.
Here’s an idea: if you have a question about tzadik/beinoni/rasha ask a mashpia. Or would the aspiring shluchim at least find someplace else to discuss it? It’s mamosh not nice.
As an example, davening from another nusach if you are chazan. Our nusach is very important to us. But you missed the part where it says in sefer haminhagim that for this reason you should try to avoid being chazan in a non-lubavitch shul or something like that. Because we don’t like to impose on other shuls. Or posts.
Heterim – You’re not the first to complain. But you’re just sad you missed out on all the fun.
It doesn’t say that Mr. Heterim. Go look it up. I have several times.
Yeah there is nothing about blogging and commenting in sefer haminhagim.
Go read footnote 16 in sefer minhagim, and then come and apologize.
TRS- If you’re already Modern Orthodox, then you’re already not keeping the torah as YOU say it should be kept. So what will it make a difference if you choose what you want to do? Lots of people (even frum) do that anyway… you do what you can.
If someone sincerely believes they’re doing the right thing, and they have a rav or gadol to back themselves up, who am I to argue?
and there’s a big difference between doing what you can and picking and choosing.
A person needs a Rav in order to make his beliefs valid?..
And you’re right, there is a fine line between picking and doing what you can… but if you believe you’re doing the right thing (for you) then you are doing what you can.
Without a rav or mashpia a person is nothing. Moshe Kibel Torah MiSinai, umesorah L’Yehoshua. Without Mesorah there is no Torah.
there’s a difference between believing you’re doing the right thing for you and doing what you can do.
Okay, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this point..
What is that difference exactly?
Go ask a mashpia.
When a BT is slowly making their way to keeping all the mitzvos, they take things one at a time, and this is the right approach. Sure, they could do everything immediately, but that would be counter-productive.
When you try as hard as you possibly can, go all-out, then you’re doing what you can do.
No need to apologize.
16.The question arises as to whether a worshiper in this situation may lead the prayers as a sheliach tzibbur while following his own accustomed rite and not that of the congregation. In such cases, the law is determined by actual precedent (maaseh rav). Thus R. Nasan Adler (and so too [R. Pinchas Horowitz,] the author of Sefer Haflaah), himself following the Sephard rite, led his congregation who followed the Ashkenaz rite. (From the responsa of the Chasam Sofer, Orach Chayim 16.) There is no need here to elaborate further on this subject.
Who says this is an obligation? This just says it’s permissible. So my source was off but I’m confident I saw it in a lubavitch sefer that in order not to make machloikis this situation should be avoided. Maybe shaarei halacha uminhag?
Does it sound like I have one?
So that’s what a lot of people do, just they start out with more mivtzot then a BT.
Heterim: 100 percent. There is a fifth chelek in Shulchan Oruch-common sense.
Lost: So go get one.
Maybe, maybe. It’s a complicated issue. You have to farbreng about it for a couple hours.
Thanks for the suggestion… Yea farbrengens cure everything with the amount of vodka that get drunk at them….
Farbrengens cure because chassidim get together and hash out a plan to deal with life.
Did you come up with a good plan yet?
You want the truth?
Isn’t that what most people want?
If that’s what most people wanted then the world would look a lot different.
Maybe. Different people find different truths.
Maybe. Anyway, you want mine?
Sure, please share.
My truth is…(drum roll please)…I found a couple great mashpiim, and a couple great Roshei Yeshiva, and listened to everything they said.
So your truth is other people’s truth?
Isn’t that what I said earlier? Moshe kibel Torah…
So you found your truth in other people’s truth… hey, if that works for you then good. I prefer trying to find things out for myself..
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