I figured all the converts or prospective converts who read this site would be interested in this – I found it on Jewcy and the writer gave me permission to post it. For those of you new to this site – someone write another post regarding her conversion a while back -Read- funny thoughts on my conversion.
Hey guys, I’m a little nervous writing this because I’m the new kid on the block but I hope some of you will respect me enough to give me a thoughtful answer. However, despite my nervousness, I’d feel rude if I asked you for your honest opinions without giving you an idea of who I am.
For starters I’m a Jew by choice (hence the “jbc” on the nick) who was born and raised Christian (Pentecostal) and was quite devoted for most of my life with some sprinkled devotion through high school which then became stagnant in college. All the same I remained a Christian up until a little over a year ago. Got a new job and with it came a plethora of interesting people from all over the world. Finding my place among my co-workers I naturally found myself having the “get to know each other” conversations. Upon one conversation with one of the managers the topic of religion came up and, to make a long story short, he is a Jew (by blood and faith), I was a Christian and so we engaged in intellectual conversations debating beliefs and so on.
This rekindled my interest in religion which quickly turned into a search for a more meaningful way of life and in my research and comparison of various religions I came to rest, quite comfortably, on Judaism. Though an unofficial conversion (just don’t quite have time to go through the process right now-college, job, family..etc.)my actions and ideals are most definitely Jewish.
And now the question. This may seem odd but being one who likes to know himself and fit in correctly, respectfully and knowingly; my question is, am I still considered goy? : P To clarify, would it be rude or inconsiderate to now call something goyish or use other mannerisms? Would this make me seem like the white boy who ignorantly abuses the “N” word to seem cool? Please let me know so that I don’t have to find out the hard way.
Thanx for the response
Laotzujbc
Tikkun Olam
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I wouldn’t consider it rude if you accurately described something as being “goyish”…but you better be darn sure you are using the term properly because that’ll be the first thing Jews will key in on if they know you weren’t born Jewish.
You asked:
And now the question. This may seem odd but being one who likes to know himself and fit in correctly, respectfully and knowingly; my question is, am I still considered goy? : P To clarify, would it be rude or inconsiderate to now call something goyish or use other mannerisms? Would this make me seem like the white boy who ignorantly abuses the “N” word to seem cool? Please let me know so that I don’t have to find out the hard way.
Honestly, I tried very hard to figure out what you were asking, but I am very confused.
How does whether or not you are still considered a “goy” have anything to do with whether you can call something “goyish?”
Is it that you think only jews can use the work “goyish” and you are wondering whether you are now considered enough of a jew to use the term as well?
If that is what you are asking then (1) The term “goyish” is not only used by jews; (2) depending on the context, it does not have to be a negative thing (e.g., “she is a hot goy”); (3) if it is used negatively, then a jew has less of a right to use it then a non-jew (similarly to the “N” word). So in summary your question really doesn’t make much sense to me.
I think a better question for you to ask is whether you are now enough of a jew to be able to use the derogatory term “kike.” Your question should be, can I use the term kike, in the same way that african-americans can use the “N” word, or am I still a goy and therefore cannot use the word.
I wish that affinity and participation were all that were asked in order to join by choice. Unfortunately there are all manner of initiation and continuing requirements. At least you don’t have to be “jumped in” street gang style!
Without proper conversion, you are still a gentile. Far too many gentiles claim to be Jewish without going through the conversion process. Sorry to be blunt, but good luck on your Jewish progress!
Yes. The (non jewish) guy that’s been coming to my shul daily for the past 6 years still doesn’t count for minyan. Gotta go through the process. All the most important things in life are tough, unfortunately.
Go ahead use goyish. I don’t think most people care.
It is rude for any Jew to call another Jew a goy. It is not up to us to decide who is Jewish enough and who isn’t. It also sets up a scenario where people may feel embarassed.
In the proper use of the word, the poster is still a non-Jew until he converted properly.
For what it’s worth, however, word “goyish” means specific plethora of activities, views and behavior that some goyim are accustomed to and traditional/religious Jews are not. It can range from dressing like a whore or asking someone deeply personal questions to eating a “sandwich” consisting of only bread and mayonnaise. Jews (in touch with their Jewishness) don’t do something like that.
(By the way, buying presents in late December is goyish — whatever holiday the presents are for.)
If a non-Jew hasn’t converted (yet) and lives as a ben Noach, then his behavior is not goyish and he is not hypocritical when criticizing something as “goyish”.
The same way that a Black person who doesn’t rob people on a street, doesn’t wear his pants a meter below his waistline, doesn’t listen to obnoxious music so loudly that is creates a small earthquake in his vicinity, etc. is not a “Schwartz”. (At the same time he can be totally in tune with his heritage, whatever he perceives it to be.)
I told him that he is not Jewish according to anyone’s standards, its not like taking an oath- you actually have to convert and showing interest just makes the Rabbis push you away and act rude- not because they are assholes – that’s their job.
You mean not necessarily because they are – they might also be..
A goy is a goy is a goy.
Are you trying to rekindle some old fought-out-post? Ha
This guy’s worried about being politically incorrect by calling others goyish? What about being a “fake jew”?
Not that I’m trying knock his newfound beliefs, if he thinks Judaism is for him, then convert. If he believes in the Torah but doesn’t want to convert, become a Noachide. Once upon a time, goyim that pretended to be Jews by observing Shabbat were liable with the death penalty. Even pre-converts today aren’t allowed to keep a “full” Shabbat without breaking it at least once.
Sorry to be so blunt, but we have had a major crisis in the past 25 years trying to figure out and preserve who and what “true Jews” are. From interfaith marriages performed by so called “rabbis”, to the Israeli style “go to the army and your Jewish” mentality, to cases such as these.
Hey guys,
I’m the original writer of this post and I just wanted to say thank you to all of you for your comments.
Also, to comment on what has been said so far I would like to add the following:
1) I’m fully aware that my interests and support for Judaism is not enough and that I still have a path before me in order to be a full convert. When life permits rest assured I shall proudly walk that path.
2)To Aryeh:
I’m sorry that I did not clarify my question enough. After reading it again I see your point and agree with your suggestion on how I should have worded it but it seems the orginal version worked for most people. In the end, my question was answered.
Furthermore, it makes me smile to see how all of you and others on Jewcy.com push the issue of my conversion. That it matters so deeply to all of you (and I fully understand why) inspires me to continue in my studies and conversion process. Thx again
Laotzujbc
Tikkun Olam
Hi Laotzujbc,
From your handle it seems like you’re into Taoism. It’s amazing how many similarities there are between Taoism and Judaism!
I’ll just repeat what everyone has basically already said: You’re still a goy until you complete the conversion process. And no one would really care if you call something “goyish”, as it merely describes something out of our culture (to varying degrees depending who you ask, but that’s a whoooole other topic), so it doesn’t really matter who says it.
Let me just say I’m very impressed with your inquisitiveness. It’s not something you see everyday, and Judaism has all the answers for someone who truly seeks the truth. Most goyim don’t focus on the meaning of life, what it’s all about, etc. or yearn for real answers, so it’s refreshing to see someone out of the “club” doing the same. Now I don’t mean to sound like an “asshole” rabbi, but it’s really a lifelong commitment, and it’s very tough to stick with it. Once you join, you can’t just “opt out” like a credit card. Why don’t you just keep the 7 Noachide laws? It’s so much easier for all of us, including yourself.
Good luck whatever you choose!
As a former goy who converted to Judaism, I take offense to statements that start with “Most goys” as they usually lead to stereotypes.
As for calling things “goyish,” in my experience, people don’t stop at calling Christmas “goyish,” they go even further to use the term in some disgusted tone to highlight how much better they think Jews are than goyim–as in, that’s so disgusting it’s goyish, thank G-d it’s not Jewish.
Aliza,
If you converted to Judaism, obviously you must have thought it to be better than whatever the alternative had to offer. Even if one doesn’t become a Jew, but becomes a ben/bas Noach, he/she has already chosen Judaism — for non-Jews.
So, if someone has been driving an American car for a while and then switched to a Japanese one, why should he object to an American car being called junk?
i had a relatively intelligent comment to make, but after reading all the comments, it kind of feels like i’m just beating the dead horse, blah blah…anyway i have a friend who’s going through the conversion process and she’s been living as a jewess for around two years but still hasn’t made it official. i think it’s awesome that she’s taking her time. it really stresses the permanence of the decision. if it’s not for her, it’s not for her.
when discussing this with nonjewish friends, i tend to compare converting to judaism to having a sex change…once you do it it’s pretty much permanent and they make you do an extended test run beforehand to be sure. i know that sex changes can be reversed so maybe it’s not a perfect mashal but the idea is the same.
if you’re ready to come over, welcome. enjoy your test run, though, and don’t jump into it. take your sweetass time.
AUGH i just typed a long post and i guess it didn’t go through…oh well, here it goes again:
i have a friend who is going through the conversion process (she grew up quaker) and while she’s been living as a religious, skirt-wearing jewess for around two years, she has yet to make it official, and i think that’s great. becoming a tribe-ee is a big deal and i think it’s really impressive that she’s making sure it’s absolutely right before doing it.
when talking about the conversion process with nonjewish friends, i tend to compare it to a sex change…pretty much permanent and they make you do a lengthy trial run before making the switch. i realize it’s not a perfect ??? since sex changes can be reversed, but you get the idea. no flip flopping.
anyway, if you’re ready to sign up, welcome! but enjoy your process and take your sweetass time making it official. being nonjewish is way way easier.
Regardless of your personal religious beliefs, if you use the word goy or goyish (or schwartze), I will still think it is unfortunate that you are willing to commit public chilluls Hashem that repulse me as much as it would if you called someone nigger or mick or spic or kike or any other derogatory term.
My opinion of you doesn’t matter. There is no reason for you to care whether or not I consider you Jewish. I will agree with those who said conversion is a process, and you don’t have the right to call yourself one if you haven’t gone through that process, but you know what’s true in your heart, and in the end, that’s what matters, not anyone’s opinion.
I think it takes extra audacity to go slinging divisive words like goy or goyish around, if you’re not Jewish. There are a lot of good things about Judaism. If you’re going to try to emulate Judaic behaviors, I hope you pick up the positives, not the negatives.
and, oh, wow, the return of heimish — surely this is a miracle of Chanukah.
“So, if someone has been driving an American car for a while and then switched to a Japanese one, why should he object to an American car being called junk?”
I don’t think I can fully express how angry and disgusted I am by this post. I’m not even sure I can get a handle on my feelings to reply. So, let me jus say this. You referred to non-Jews as junk? You are a disgusting person. You obviously know nothing about being Jewish or why someone would want to be Jewish.
Non-Jews are not junk. Hashem made the goyim btzelem Elokim as well. But their beliefs are undoubtedly so, and that is being generous.
Heterim,
Goyim’s souls are rooted in kelipot according to chassidus, doesn’t sound very desirable to me. Of course that statement is made completely on a spiritual level.
On a physical level, ask any Jew that lived in Europe or the middle east between the start of the common era to 1950, I’m sure you’ll have a very one sided point of view.
I realize that many goyim have good in them, I know some that are extremely kind and friendly, probably more so than some Jews I know. There is also a concept of gentile being righteous as goyim without having to convert, many examples are brought down, such as Antoninus.
To re-iterate my point to the original poster:
Don’t fool yourself into thinking that you are Jewish just because you feel connected. You are not Jewish until you go through a strict / official process, preferably overseen by valid / orthodox beth din. If this is too hard, uncomfortable or takes too much time, you are way better off sticking to the Noachide laws which have only 7 categories for a total of about 40 laws including subcategories.
I agree with comment #19; there is rarely a good reason to use the word “goy” in most modern applications.
Phil,
I’ve also learned a shtickel tanya. Shiurim bsefer hatanya explains that it means that goyim can and do in fact do good things but, with some exceptions, it’s for an ulterior motive. there’s worse things in the world. they’re not on the level of yidden but it’s not necessarily a bad thing.
a yid also comes from kelpia, albeit kelipas nogah so it’s possible for him to do a mitzvah lishma.
hesh: can we delete one of my comments?
Yes I could
Hey,
In spiritual reality, Jews are different than all other groups. We were created with a different spiritual make up. I have friends who feel that acting a certain way or believing a certain makes you that being. However this a false insight. In order for a person to be Jewish, he needs to convert properly thereby restructuring his spiritual essence; an essence which is hard to see and relate to sometimes but actually exists for more powerfully than the physical. Good luck pal in your quest for truth. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
The gemara says that the physical reality of a yid is also different. That when a ger leaves the mivkah the first time his body has literally undergone a physical change. Almost to the degree that a yid is a different species entirely.
Chabad,
That’s a good point. I was going to mention that but I wanted to discuss strictly the spiritual aspect. Also, when a person does teshuva (repentance) it actually changes their appearance.
Laotzujbc,
If you decide to fully embrace the conversion path, I wish you all the best, that you find a good rabbi to teach you, a shul full of people who can help you along the way and the courage to deal with the challenges the process entails.
Also I hope you dont end up surrounded by jerks like Phil and Crawling Axe. Not every one in the Orthodox community is like them. OTOH, you probably will deal with people who will challenge and reject you and your intentions. This is about your life and your commitment to Torah, not theirs.
Phil,
I can call you a jerk and still respect you. You of course are free to feel offended or not.
Chris,
No use to resort to name calling just because you disagree with my opinions. The entire Talmud is based on rabbis disagreeing with each other, I don’t recall any name calling going on there. The first thing your Rabbi should have taught you about being Jewish is that we can agree to disagree and still be civil about it.
Many of the points I bring down when commenting are not only my own views, but those of halachic authorities as well, which I often point out, although much of it comes from my own warped point of view. I understand that some readers aren’t Jewish or aren’t frum and won’t necessarily agree with these views. However, this blog is primarily targeting frum viewers, so I have no problem speaking my mind without fear of offending anyone.
I’m not offended by being called a jerk, yet I don’t get how you can claim to respect people and call the names at the same time.
Phil,
I honestly do respect your perspective, I just have a terrible way of showing it. There are times when I just cant bring myself to say “I respectfully disagree with X” or to double check a blog comment against How To Win Friends And Influence People. I guess I’m strange like that.
“I have no problem speaking my mind without fear of offending anyone.”
Phil, Just in case anyone is still reading this… your words are accessible to anyone with Google. Do you really want those words to be seen by people who might then think that Jews are bigoted? Don’t we have enough problems already? Everything you say or do as a Jew can be used to either bring honor or dishonor on our people.
Ahuva,
Everyone is “bigoted” including Jews and our religion. The religion won’t change perspective and nor will I, because of a few liberal minded / politically correct yuppies.
Fact is we claim to be chosen among the nations, so that makes us different. We have processes that are clearly spelled out when it comes to dealing with non Jews, converts as well as prohibitions against intermarriage or allowing them to do many things such as cook our food, keep shabbat, etc. As bigoted as this sounds, it all comes from the Torah, which is 100% truth.
All Jews and non Jews should realize these facts, they are common knowledge.
The fact that many non Jews hate us never changed and won’t change until the time of Mashiach. Yishmael was jealous or Yitzchak, Esav hated Yaakov, Egyptians enslaved us, and we’ve been put into galut by non jews a number of times, in addition to all the murders, torture, rapes and other crimes they commited against us for no reason other than us being Jews.
Facts are facts, sticking you head in the sand won’t change anything.
Well, ith judaism you still hav eto go through tht e”official” ceremony; miktvah, torah, and, well, I don’t konw what to call it other than a b’ris in a way, where you’re bled, it doesn’t hurt that much from what I understand.
When I converted (being agnostic before), the only thing that was required that I study the Torah, understand the background (not in full depth) of our weekday and shabbath davenning, the major (Torah ordained) holidays, plus the few rabbinic ones (the 25 of Kieslev, the 9 of Av, being the main two rabbinic ones I remember), immersion in the miktveh, and a promise of commitment and prayer in front of our community (with an informal promise that I would learn to read Hebrew, as the Torah, is written in it and for the Megillah of which it is a mitzvoh to read from on Purim)
The Rabbis said that you can daven (pray) in any language, though. May all who seek Hashem find him in peace.