I have never actually thought of polygamy before, besides for the few times I have heard that some sephardic folks still take more then one wife and the several times I have found myself staring at large multi wived families in Utah. But seriously why would anyone want another wife, its hard to handle one- imagine having two bickering-nagging wives who may be in competition over you or over themselves- well I guess two women in competition with me aint too bad.
Come to think of it, if you can separate your two wives so they don’t get their periods at the same time you can time it so you never have to worry about needa- but then mikvah night just wont be the same.
The following message was left on my facebook wall by a fan who happens to be a convert.
Most converts to Judaism are women.Most babies born to Jewish homes are women.Mostly men are leaving Orthodox Judaism.I think we all agree we need more Jews in the world. The ways to get more Jews are bigger Jewish families and more converts. Mostly, though, Jews look to the natural option, more Jewish babies. If women outnumber men, and all … Read More Jewish men are monogamous, there is an obvious problem. The solution?
Support polygamy!
Now why is it that when someone like me comes out and says this no one takes me seriously?
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{ 63 comments… read them below or add one }
Ones enough…
I might not mind a pilegesh tho…:P
Let me first try one then I’ll tell ya, it sucks because I know comments will be interesting but I will be away from the computer all day.
why not?
whats the big deal?
part of our tradition, no?
anyone pro gay marriage should have 0 problem with legalizing this anyway…
I’m part of a movement to encourage born Jews to marry converts or “half” Jews. I think that some of our genetic disorders (Tay-Sachs, Gaucher) would be eradicated. In addition, there are a disproportionate number of Jewish children in our yeshiva day schools with diagnosed with special needs. (Geneticists have traced inbreeding resulting in the overlapping of certain traits, like the Hapsburg hemophiliacs.) In the charedi community, there has been such a push to check on yichus that it may become possible that your cousin (several times removed) will be the only “suitable” person to marry.
By marrying someone who is not “100%” Jewish, we are stregthening our “stock” so to speak.
what that person posted on your facebook is not really that accurate..there are more male babies then female babies born in every single population (since male fetuses are slightly more likely to survive to birth than female fetuses), jews included. The other parts may be accurate, because women in general tend to be more religious then men.
As for polygamy…well most populations who practice polygamy (or rather polygyny- which is a man having several wives, since few have women with several husbands) are doing so in a way that is designed to keep women in a subordinate position, and involves child brides, etc. I totally do not approve of that.
However, if it’s a decision between several consenting adults, I take my usual stance on relationships- as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult, it’s fine with me/none of my business.
A friend of mine grew up in a polygamous family with 2 men and 1 woman. Eventually one of the men left, and since she was 10 or so she just had two parents. She’s pretty sure the guy who left is the one who is her actual biological father, but she is closer with the guy who stayed (not surprisingly)
I have no issue with polygamy as long as, as AE said, they are all consenting adults.
I think that if a man picks his wives carefully, he can end up with women who get along fabulously and end up being more like sisters than rivals.
I think the opposite (one woman, more than one husband) needs to become more commonplace. If the men can do it, we should be doing it too!
Old joke:
Q: What’s the punishment for bigamy?
A: Two wives.
The Wolf
Though my gut tells me polygamy is wrong, the more I think about it the less shocking or wrong it seems. However, I think I would probably kill another woman for touching my hubby, just the way i’d hope he would feel about me being with someone else. So that could be a problem.
New season of Bog Love coming in January. Cant wait.
big*
As you mention, most men can barely handle one wife. Don’t know what makes them think they can do well with more than one. Men hear polygamy and think double the sex and with two different women, alright! Somehow, I don’t think that’s what it’s all about. And if my husband wants a second wife, and she is the traditional kind, who enjoys cooking, cleaning, and laundry – sign me up!
Wolf, I thought it was two mothers in law!
Check this out… http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1074191/Rampant-Rabbi-Seven-wives-children-happy-messiah–meet-Britains-unorthodox-family.html
HESH:
do you really not mind sharing your wife? (or did you mean polygyny)
CHANIEF:
i actually wish i had 2 mothers-in-law
Lion, I’d be more than happy to give you mine. Where should I ship her?
I’m all for it, great way to solve the so called shidduch crisis.
Look at all the benefits (1 man 2 women):
1) Husband gets to do one when the other has a headache.
2) In this day and age of working women, multiple incomes are very handy.
3) You’ll never need a babysitter, or extra kitchen/cleaning help.
4) Might be a way to halachically sanction threesomes (probably not).
5) When things start getting crazy, husband can take off and let the wives fight it out between each other.
Multiple men to 1 woman is against halacha from the get go, not an option, as chauvinistic as it may sound.
As Hesh said (and as my screen name here indicates), I’m a convert. I grew up in a Muslim community and I’ve seen polygamous families first hand. IT WORKS!! Of course I am only talking about one man/multiple women. AND as my screen name also indicates, I’m a woman. So don’t call me a womanizer, please!
Of course I am working under the presupposition that all halakha relating to marriage will be followed:
>Rambam limits a man to four wives.
>Niddah laws significantly limit intercourse.
>One wife can not be shown favoritism over another, nor the children of one wife favored over the other
>All involved women should be frum –> MODESTY IS ESSENTIAL, they should also all have a hand in rearing the children to observe mitzvoth and they should all be G-d-fearing.
>Halakha limits marriage to post-puberty consenting adults.
????? (“concubine”, wife without ketubah) is ok, too; but the issue with that is that the community MUST recognize her as being married, even without a ketubah; otherwise there stands the risk of her becoming nothing more than a call girl with a steady client, who also sleeps with other men when that’s more beneficial to her.
And yes, I as a woman would consider polygamy. In fact, I can think of several benefits to being the younger wife:
1. (As has been noted repeatedly,) I’m a convert and didn’t grow up in a Jewish environment.
Therefore, I have little to no practical knowledge of Jewish day-to-day life in a Jewish home. Although I may have some book knowledge about it, I have very little practical knowledge. Being the younger wife would allow me to live in and observe a Jewish family without the pressures of being solely responsible for filling all the roles of a Jewish wife.
2. I would gain experience raising children other than my own. Also, I would have another woman’s help raising my own.
3. I have someone else to complain to when my husband is a complete jerk.
I don’t think polygamous families have any more struggles than monogamous ones. A cool headed third party might actually be helpful when it comes to resolving domestic disputes. As with any relationship, it is what you make it. If everyone loves each other and tries to make it work, it will work!
And for those of you who think this will mean moving to Utah: Why bother with marriage licenses? I really don’t see the point of that. A ketubah (or ????? status) means you are a married couple. Absence thereof means you are not, even if you are “legally” married in your country of residence.
Littlemiss – very interesting points you mention. As a woman growing up as a muslim, you likely share some outlook/insight with older women from sephardic / middle Eastern backgrounds where this was more prevalent. Ashkenazim have been banned multiple wives for hundreds of years.
Althoug sephardim were the first to reach America and accordingly Sephardic rule should apply (minhag hamakom) , Ashkenazim outnumbered and “hijacked” the continent due to their numbers. They then took over the rabbinic system and laws. Same goes for most of the state of Israel.
One thing though, concubines are illegal according to Rambam unless you are the King of Israel (Olmert doesn’t qualify). About 20 years ago some people tried to set up a pilegesh hotline in NY, the Rabbinic world freaked out as expected, accused it of being phone order prostitution (which it probably was). I still remember reading the Jewish Press articles while in yeshiva, we obviously disagreed with the rabbis (that’s what happens when the little head does the thinking instead for the big head).
Phil: Didn’t the law prohibiting polygamy to Ashkenazim expire anyway?
I assume it’s in the Mishne Torah in the Laws of Kings and Their Wars somewhere?
Can I have a source for the quote from Rambam? That’s something I’ve never heard, and I’d just like to see it.
The point you all are missing is that yes, polygamy is ALLOWED according to halacha. It was a concession granted to men. The IDEAL relationship, the one we are supposed to base our marriages on, can be found right at the begnning of Parshas Bereishis, between Adam and Chava. I don’t know any woman who would be willing to share the one on one connection she has with her spouse with a third party. I definitely wouldn’t. Maybe it’s selfish but even if mashiach comes right now, honey, the answer is NO.
Littlemiss,
The cherem did expire, but as far as I know it was renewed or possibly renewed automatically if most accept it. A couple rabbis (including Rabbi Ovadia Yosef) wanted to get rid of the cherem in extreme cases such as one who couldn’t have kids. Also, the Vilna Gaon was one of the biggest opponents of the Cherem, but didn’t succeeed in finding 100 gedolim to cancel it.
The Rambam I quoted was specific to concubines (pilegesh) = women living with king without formal marriage, and you a correct, it is in the laws of kings and wars (hilchot melachim umilchomotehem), I would have to look up the chapter number but I’m in my office…
Librarian: I think the idea of a successful polygamous relationship is summed up by Sara Imenu: “That perhaps I may be built up through her.” (Now, what ruined this relationship was pride: Hagar despised Ima; but, I think the relationship had full potential, and Avraham avinu did in fact remarry faithful Keturah)…The point being: it is about what is best for the husband and the existing wife. They have to feel the need for another wife. A wife should never be added to provoke the first to jealousy. It shouldn’t be done because the husband is full of lust and can’t control himself; the only valid reason to enter a polygamous marriage is for the good of the family and the Jewish world.
I would, as I’ve said above, be more than willing to share a husband.
Phil, you’re forgetting the kollel community. They’ve been trying to repeal the ban since it’s so hard, in these economic times, to raise a family on a single income. Two wives = two incomes. Makes sense.
I think that if a man picks his wives carefully, he can end up with women who get along fabulously and end up being more like sisters than rivals.
There is a reason that the Muslims, some of whom practice polygamy, have a principle that a man cannot take on another wife until he can provide a separate house (that could consist of a separate floor within the same building) for her and her children. It’s very well known that the wives tend not to get along with one another, and that status is a big issue. Just look at the parasha from two weeks ago — Sarah could not handle the change in status that occurred when Hagar had a child with Avraham. The same is in evidence in past Chinese culture — older wives were extremely resentful of younger, second wives.
“Most babies born to Jewish homes are women”
Where’d that statistic come from?
As for polygamy, I already told my husband that if he ever got another wife I’d chop his… I’m sure you can figure out the rest of that sentence.
Anyone who wants polygamy watch Big Love…doesnt look so enticing….
The statistics in the original article sound rather specious.
I can’t believe that no one mentioned the cherem of rabbeinu gershom here. This is not a Halacha from the rambam; he was a sefardi, and was cool with multiple wives. Point is, polygamy for Ashkenazim is assur like pork.
TRS,
If Rabbeinu Gershom was a sefardi, the Satmar Rebbe was a yemenite! Rabbeinu Gershom was born and lived in the French/German area of Maintz, you can’t get more ashkenaz than that.
I brought up the cherem in some comments on this topic, so have others. No one blamed the Rambam for the cherem, I simply pointed out that concubines are forbidden unless you are the king of Israel.
hmmm..I love HBO’s “Big Love” Does that count? And some of the Avos had more than one wife, so must be something to it.
BUT just keep in mind, its not for everyone: I mean, just look at Yitzchak Avinu!
i’m with shevi on the “marry the converts” movement. heck, go ahead and marry two. a guy with 2 wives is definately an anomoly but a guy with his kissing-cousin is freakshow appalacian mountian hillbilly style.
seeing frumsters marry their first cousins makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit. and we are not talking “distant” here. thinking of my own cousins…oh chas v’shalom times a million!!!!
but it’s true, converts bring in new genes. tay sach-less genes, breast cancer-less(er) genes, and in my own case…TALL genes!
The statistics on the original article came from Shabbos lunch. This was a discussion the 6 of us who were there, two (monogamous) couples and two singles, had. Someone at the table was a son of two doctors, and I think he was the one who supplied the stats. I never bothered to verify them.
chaneif:
We’re discussing Judaism and polygamy, not Christian rubbish….lol. 
I enjoy ranting about Christians.
That dude’s Messianic anyway, so who cares. His wives aren’t modest. At least one is a gentile. He doesn’t have ketubahs, or at least not valid ones, for any of them. He’s a min. Leave him to go to hell.
phil: I never said that rabbeinu gershom was Sephardi, because I said he was Ashkenazi. My point was that the cherem is from him, and therefore ashkenazim can’t have two wives at the same time.
LilMissGer, theres an old Japanese saying “it is better to be the second wife of a rich man than the only wife of a poor man”
oh, jew lookin’ at me?, there’s Jews in apalacia as well. I just found out that when my dad was a kid in West Virginia he was the Shabbos Goy for the town tailor.
A great idea that I fully support. Despite the possibility of 2 mothers in law, the advantages are obvious. This is a viable solution to the shidduch crisis. The over abundance of single girls would be quickly abated and level the playing field.
TRS –
Sorry, I misread the comment you posted, I now realize you were referring to the Rambam as a sefardi. Makes more sense that way.
I’m hoping they end up revoking the cherem (not that I need another wife, 3rd income would be great though), maybe it will help solve the so called shidduch crisis. All you need is 100 participating rabbis and were set.
Menachem I like it solutions to the shidduch crisis. TRS where have you been? Most commenters disappear after a while I’m used to it.
More boys are likely to become autistic than girls, so the eventually things even itself out.
I am divorced. There are just as many single women as there are single men. From what I’ve seen: Many single women can’t find anyone who meets all their criteria, which is why they complain that there are no good men.
sorry hesh, I’m in yeshiva currently, and my sole Internet access is with an iPod touch, so forgive me for not commenting as much as usual.
Phil: I think it would be great if someone tried to overturn the cherem. Imagine the politics- this would be ten times bigger than meshichst-anti+bobov+satmar+any other schism combined! I’d never be lost for a post again!
>>Many single women can’t find anyone who meets all their criteria, which is why they complain that there are no good men.
And there are plenty of men who feel the same way about the single women out there today. I am happily married now, but I recall sympathizing–when I was single, of course–with the next generation because some of the future mothers I have seen are really not up to the task. Others, on the other hand, were fine.
jewish appalacians?!? that’s perfect! i’m sure they take inbreeding to brand new heights!!!!
The question as to the halacha of polygamy will be resolved with the coming of Moshiach
Yankel: May he legalize it speedily and in our days!
All these people against it are putting a wet blanket on my hopes and dreams….lol.
TRS,
I’m not so sure that many people would oppose cancelling the Cherem once 100 leading rabis overturned it. Possibly a good job for the recently formed Sanhedrin in Tiveria.
Sure there would still be hold outs, possibly entire sects that don’t agree, but I think it’s high time for the Sanhedrin to assert themselves if they want any credibility. Something of this maganatude would catapult them into the frum spotlight.
In reality, the issue is simply overturning a cherem, probably less stringent or strict than many of the other arguments frum communities have with each other.
Phil,
Hmmmm….so maybe someone should contact the Nascent Sanhedrin about this! I had the chutzpah to bring it up in the first place, I guess I will. There may be hope for me to get happily married after all!
if the new Sanhedrin wants credibility, then this is a terrible way to get it. Aside from the secular world’s abandonment of this practice, I think that most people recognize that Rabbeinu Gershom was not stupid. He made this takanah for a reason.
Anyway, this all reminds me of a joke I once heard.
A yungerman walks into kollel, and he says to another guy there, your wife just sent you a note saying that she’ll be late pickin you up today. The guy asks, “which wife?” the yungerman is shocked, and says, what do you mean?! Cherem de Rabbeinu Gershom! The other guy turns to him and says, “what, and opening mail isn’t also a cherem?”
Fine, so it’s not the funniest joke in the world; nu nu.
jew lookin’ at me?,
As far as inbreeding goes, there are enough examples in Torah, right?
well, i figure torah inbreeding was not so bad because it was at the relative beginning of things.
it’s after generations and generations and generations of inbreeding that everything starts to get creepy and look funny. you know, that recessive gene thing that we learned about in junior high.
i don’t know how people stomach it. any married first cousins on here? the ones i know, i don;t have the chutzpah to ask in person. yikes.
jew lookin’ at me? – my husbands grandparents were first cousins. Explains a lot if you ask me…
Shabbot Shalom, all!
First of all, the whole wives getting their periods different times, so sex is an option all month long… sorry to break it to you, but girls being around girls tend to get their periods around the same time. Nature ain’t fair.
Anyway, I can see why guys would want more than one wife. Women have beautiful bodies, that men can never match up to (don’t get me wrong, some guys have hot bodies, but I’m just making a general statement here). Our body’s are smooth, and sleek, and soft, and long flowing hair and girls smell nice too. (I’m speaking of girls who take care of themselves, not the furry anti proper hygiene type).
Not to mention the fact that women have their reproductive parts hidden nice and neatly on the inside.
Face it, GIRLS are hot!
Everyone wants a piece of us.
hahahaha
Ok Jenny but we can keep them separate so we get our months of uninterrupted sex
Although I’m no Rabbi, halachically, I believe the women need separate dwellings, as we see Yaachov Avinu had separate tents for each of his wives. This should eliminate the problem. Also, whenever any of the wives are pregnant, nursing or on some types of birth control, the whole period thing gets thrown off.
4 wives per man is a sure way to have at least on available any time, can’t imagine having to deal with 4 PMS’s at the same time.
The main reason why multiple wives and pilagshim are not halachically allowed, is because the rabbis leading the community believe the repercussions will be disastrous.
The vast majority of Jewish women will never agree to a second wife. The Gemara says: to bring a second wife into the home, is to bring trouble to your home.
Since the major focuse of Jewish life is the home, every effort will be made to ensure its stability. Ultimately, second wives and concubines, whilst adding more children to the Jewish community, will also damage those children.
Until somebody raises a generation of women who are happy about polygyny, the rabbis will never allow it!
Anonymous: I recognize that many women (and men) would never be happy in a polygynous relationship. They can put that in their ketubah.
The rest of us, however….anyway I am not Ashkenazi, the Sephardic and Yemenites aren’t bound to it either.
This is so funny, because I just had my sister-in-law (SIL) and her kids staying over at our place for the weekend while her husband (my wife’s brother) was away at a conference.
After shul my wife and I came home from shul and the table was already beautifully set – SIL hadn’t gone to shul, and the kids were all playing nicely, so she set the table and also did whatever it is that women do in the kitchen to prepare for an awesome shabbos meal.
So we sit down at the table, and on one side is my wife, on the other side of me is my blonde-hot-in-a-hot-Chanie-kinda-way-SIL, and our kids and her kids (the cousins) all sitting nicely and playing/talking, and I’m thinking to myself ya know, this aint too bad!
The eye candy was abundant, the food was great, the kids and dishes were taken care of simultaneously, and I could nap in peace. If the gemarah refers to more than one wife as a tzarah, well that’s the kind of tzaros I need!
Anon –
You might be right about the vast majority of women today not agreeing to allow / put up with another wife, but I think that it’s because of the way much of today’s civilized world views the issue. We’ve been brought up to belive that it’s wrong, and is in fact illegal in many countires such as the US and Canada.
That being said, if there is a way to halachically allow it, I believe it should be done. Why limit anyone that has a need for multiple wives because of the prejudices of others?
Rabbi Gershom had valid reason for the cherem, but sephardim also had valid reason not to accept it. The only issues I could see to invalidate it today (besides the original cherem) are:
1) Dina demalchusa
2) Maras ayin – It would make orthodox Jews look really bad in modern society. This chillul Hashem would probably outweigh justifying it in modern countries, with the possible exception of Israel.
Ha! look what I just found, let’s see if it allows the Hebrew characters this time:
? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????.
Therefore, the Sages decreed that a man not marry more than four wives even if he has a lot of money, in order that they might enjoy the marital obligation [at least] once a month. (hilkhoth Ishuth 14:6)
Nope doesn’t look like it did.
Sorry Lil Miss Ger
Jew Lookin’ At Me – Haven’t you heard these first cousins make jokes in front of people about the first cousinness???
Ok further thoughts from me, after having further looked at the relationships of the patriarchs:
I think that if the relationship’s to work, the first wife needs to be the one who invites new wives. Sarah->Hagar, Rachel->Leah.
Husband adding wives on his own = trouble.
I’m sure you might wonder whether don’t i have any other things to write about… well i do.. but this sounds special.. So what is polygamy all about.. is it a sin… I’m sure most of you would think that it’s just only practiced among Muslims… hell no… it’s just something practiced by men all around the world… so what’s the big deal about it.. What is polygamy? Polygamy is the situation in which one man is either married to or involved in sexual relationships with a number of different women at one time…but not together on one bed but in different locations……now I am I elaborating it too much… I don’t care… This is the most common form of polygamy…in a nut shell it’s all about having one … two.. Three … four … five… six or more wives…