So I snapped the following picture at the kotel and it made a ruckus on my Facebook album of Israel pictures (I intend to make a flickr account one of these days) the picture was meant to show a dude wearing a Yechi yarmulke given out by some of the messianic chabadnicks who hang out at the kotel, who obviously had no idea what he was wearing. I took the picture because I thought it was funny, but then everyone over on Facebook started arguing about whether there should be a dress code at the Kotel. Well thats debatable, but my opinion is no definitely not! Because so many less people would visit the kotel if there were a dress code. One of the things I love specifically about the Kotel is that all types of Jews and non-Jews visit it and revere it in some way. Little chiloni kids kiss the kotel as their parents say a few prayers, prayers that may not be said all year round. I don’t know maybe I’m a liberal romantic- but having a dress code makes me think of this:
-->
{ 74 comments… read them below or add one }
“and revere it in some way.”
reverse what???
As to dress code, I don’t really care. But I mean to me, it is the Makom Hamikdash and one should approach the area with a certain amount of reverence and respect. Just like every non-jew knows that you don a kippa or cover your hair out of respect, they can be told out of respect to be fully clothed. You can walk into shops all over the country and there are signs on the doors: NO TANKTOPS, NO SHORTS, NO SANDALS. I mean some restaurants you cannot come in without a jacket.
You think less people will come to daven there? I doubt it. It’s not like we are asking them to put on a shtraimel and bekeshe. Just basic decorum for a place we consider the remnants of our Beis Hamikdash. And the place the Shchina never left.
Dude, what up with the “No this no that” It is not Mekom Hamikdash as you know, and also the Talmud deals with praying near dung for crying out loud.
I think the almighty is OK with shorts and tanktops – remember, in the Israeli heat, God is a native of the place….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNXKFYe8UOg
The Western Wall is not the remnants of the Beis Hamkidash, it’s just a retaining wall for Har Habayis. Sure, it’s holy and all, but it’s nothing compared to what’s inside. If it can be done in a nice and respectful manner, then sure, ask people to dress modestly, but if even one Jew is turned away, or leaves with a bad feeling about Judaism, then was it worth it?
And yeah, you’ve got to love the Yechi Yarmulkeh, huh?
About the bad feeling thingy, how about all the charedim who go away with a bad feeling because of the way people go dressed??? Come on, get over it.
The Western Wall is not owned by Haredim, Habad, or any religious group. The Western Wall is owned by the entire Jewish people. The moment anyone says otherwise then the Wall might as well be blown up and be replaced by a Mosque or Church.
Frankly, I’m delighted to see someone complaining about for*men’s* clothing, for a change.
For the record, there *was* a modesty dress code at the Kotel–at least, on *my* side of the mechitza–when we first went to Israel in the 70s. There were women stationed at the entrance with shawls and wrap-around skirts for women in sleeveless tops and/or pants or short skirts. I assumed that the dress code had been dropped out of respect for the chayalot (female soldiers) who come in uniform to pray at the Kotel.
Uh oh I wear shorts and sandals every time I go to the Kotel.
I agree 100% with you Anonymous.
“Just like every non-jew knows that you don a kippa or cover your hair out of respect”
Heimish, you have to be kidding. Every non-Jew knows you don a kippa? A good number of non-Jews I know think Judaism is polytheistic. You think they know about kippot?
I agree, obviously respectful dress is appropriate. Which is why I dress appropriately when I go. I don’t think that ENFORCING appropriate dress is necessarily noble. And DEFINITELY less people will go to the kotel if we enforce a dress code, it’s basic logic. A tourist has half a day to do the Old City, it’s the middle of the summer and they’re wearing their *fabulous* shorts and either they go in their shorts or they skip the kotel altogether.
I see two ways of looking at it. Thank G-d, the fact that this picture raises ANY eyebrows is because it’s unusual. I haven’t been over to the men’s side, but I generally feel the women are doing a generally fine job of covering up and I haven’t noticed any glaringly inappropriate men. So if it’s so unusual, it means we really don’t have much of a problem.
Ok, yeah, his shorts are a little distracting. If only distracting shorts were our biggest problem.
I see it more like this: wow, this guy came to the kotel? Cool. He’s doing his thing–kinda different from how the regular crowd does their thing–but he still connects. I’m impressed by that.
Thank you kate- I thought exactly the same thing while I was there. I can’t believe these people are at the kotel. I cant believe they are putting on tefilin- oh and I cant believe how hot these soldiers are.
Rabbi Avigdor Miller once said the Kotel should be in the hands of the Muslims because they dressed more modestly than the Jews.
Let me try that link again:
Frankly, I’m delighted to see someone complaining about *men’s* clothing, for a change.
Nice contrast of photos.
From a discussion on FaceBook which Frum Satire requested redirected here and I would like to continue:
“Rabbi Avigdor Miller once said the Kotel should be in the hands of the Muslims because they dressed more modestly than the Jews.”
>>Rabbi Avigdor Miller also had some interesting things to say about the State of Israel. That could be it’s very own blog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lrOiDq1uJY
bringing my comments from facebook over here:
1. those shorts are fabulous! straight out of pee wee’s playhouse!
2. there should be free recyclable paper kilts available to men at the kotel. same model for the women, they can just call them skirts (I’m just being ridiculous).
3. As far as at the Kotel goes (I should be able to go in not-very short shorts, but), I understand that tznius is a great concern for some, so I keep a skirt in the car ’cause I’m not out to offend or tempt people unwittingly.
The Kotel is not shul, even though there are minyanim there. It’s OUTSIDE what was shul. Outside a shul, people can wear what they want. I think the kiruv potential of a visit to the kotel far outweighs a dress code. But I’m a “come as you are, just come”-type of person when it comes to kiruv.
4. Someone mentioned that distractions at the kotel should be kept to a minimum, that it’s a holy site, not a tourist attraction, to which I replied: Which is why almost every single tour of Israel stops there — ’cause everyone wants to daven, right? I’m being facetious. I understand your point of view and that is why I wear a skirt when I’m there. I have no problem not sharing your opinion regarding … Women are a distraction, too. Should they be banned at the Kotel? Men are a distraction, let’s ban them, too. Soon only stray animals will be allowed at the kotel (stray animals in skirts and long men’s robes).
It’s easier to agree to disagree and be glad neither of us makes the rules.
—
I remember the skirts/shawls being available at the kotel, when I was a kid (I was there in ‘86 and ‘89). I do think that female soldiers should be able to go there in their uniforms, period. I’m with the “come as you are, just come” folks, and if someone wants to distribute loaner shawls/ skirts and kilts, let them fund it and please give them to the guys in tight short shorts, too.
was waiting for your comment, i thought you went to sleep or something.
no, just hunting jobs and working on some stuff I do in exchange for tuition at a class I attend. If I catch a moment of focus, I can concentrate for hours.
random halachic question du jour: If you buy a ticket in advance for an event that takes place on shabbos, are you allowed to redeem that ticket on shabbos? The ticket isn’t money, though it does have value, but only if you sell it. If you don’t sell it, it’s just a piece of paper that you can trade for entry somewhere.
Let’s suppose, for the sake of argument, that the event is in the spirit of Shabbos (according to your own halachic values system), for example. (I realize that attending such an event on shabbos means not purchasing beverages or anything else there.) And what about things like prepaid Shabbos meals at restaurants? Do these require tickets in order to enter? If yes, then that answer would apply.
When I have a halachic question, usually I just ask myself, “What would Ice Horse do?” I’m trying a different approach, this week.
I am not sure what the question is. Are you allowed to sell it on Shabbat? Of course not. You are not allowed to do business on Shabbat. Will they redeem it to you on Shabbat? Will they give you money? That’s for sure muktza. How will you carry it to the event? Am I missing something?
What would ice horse do???
Maybe I can do bumper stickers
actually they don’t really give those out at the kotel, it probably is a French guy, it is pretty common for non-religious teenagers in france to wear yechi yarmulkas.
Heimish, I mean like a meal ticket for a kosher restaurant, or a concert ticket. Not selling it, just using to gain admission to an event.
Hesh, limited edition, all the way! Need a cool Ice Horse logo, though. Heck, just an Ice Horse logo button/sticker would be funny as heck to those who get it. Niche market, for sure.
Simple. Hand out unisex ground length robes with hoods to wear over street clothes. Make them plain and any of several colors depending on mood or outlook. Black, white, red, green, whatever. Up goes the hood to cover your head if you forgot your tallit. Make the sleeves large and blousy for applying tefillin.
They hand out loaner raincoats at Niagra Falls…
Last attempt to post this link before I give up.
Or not–let me try not making some dumb mistake this time.
Success! Thanks for your patience.
oh, duh. the question is are you allowed to redeem a preprinted piece of paper for admission to an event held on shabbos if you prepaid the cost of said piece of paper?
I am not sure we’re the right people to be answering this question. Why don’t we ask Meir Shuster or Jeff Seidel those questions. How many people have been brought back to the warm folds of Judaism from a brief visit to the Kosel dressed in I don’t know what? Obviously if there were a Chassidish man or woman dressed inappropriately it would be way different than someone who’s connection to Judaism is not strong. While the Kosel is the holiest accessable place on earth for Jews it should be an inviting place for all. The real question would be is how can we ban cameras there on Friday night when you’re trying to daven Kabbolas Shabbos and someone sticks a camera in your face trying to put a picture of a Chossid on their Facebook page.
You tell em Yaakov and Kotel said with Kosel- such good effect.
I can’t understand how anyone can even leave their home in underclothes.
Yaakovsladder, I agree with you. It’s so much easier to spot a guy who has kiruv potential if he’s allowed to wear whatever he chooses.
What’s cooler than cool is that Seidel is still operating exactly as before. G-d bless him. But I have a question for all of you, especially the Israelis out there: Where is SuperShnorrer? He wasn’t in Geulah on Friday afternoon. We are worried.
Also, there were women there giving out shawls. I think the ticket is Muktza Machmas Gufo or something. I will ask. It’s an interesting question.
utubefan, what does machmas gufo mean? I don’t know if they use tickets, but I know that some kosher restaurants on the upper west side sell prepaid shabbos meals.
What I don’t understand is when people insist on dressing like they live in a shtetl from a different century. Did the people in the Shtetls dress in robes and sandles like Moses? I don’t think Abraham wore a shtreimel or a black hat in the summer neither. Then you see those 1776 revolutionary nickers socks too. Simply live with the times folks. Don’t these folks realize that they are imitating people who dressed for their own times, so why shouldn’t we. But women out in public in Israel should dress in body armour kind of like what robocop wears (I could also be swayed to the stormtrooper look) because its just too unsafe out there with all the bombers and shrapnels floating about. The Israeli men need to wear more mobile clothes- what ever their commanders think is acceptable , so they can be mobile for any counter attacks.
Anon its like the Amish thats all I can say. But you gotta love the Knickers- every time I see them I think of the song I am the Walrus.
Abraham and Moshe didn’t wear hats and streimels because they lived in the desert.
When your hitzonius is holy the idea is that eventually your pnimyus will be as well. Meaning that eventually (hopefully) you will start feeling and living how you are dressed.
It’s true that the clothing of most chassidim is what the nobility of those times and locations wore. But once a Rebbe whom you are mekushar to donned those clothing, they became holy. Everything breath a Rebbe takes is holy – it’s explained in many places how the keilim of a tzaddik also become kodesh. There’s no such thing as “mundane” by such an individual. if we can strengthen our connection to a Rebbe by dressing as him than let’s go for it. Hopefully a drop of that holiness will penetrate.
Maybe we should all go back to the original, “authentic” form of Jewish dress–men wear robes and turbans, women wearing essentially full hijab. ;-P Joking. Not a **bad** idea, though.
WTF??
You mean it’s ok to got to the Wall without a Gun??
When did that happen?
Lots of pictures of Guns at the Kotel Here!!
DoubleTapper
DoubleTapper@gmail.com
DoubleTapper, blogging on Guns Politics Defense from Israel
WHERE IS SUPERSHNORRER, PEOPLE? Doesn’t anyone out there know?
s(b), Muktza Machmas Gufo refers to things that have no real use on Shabbos, aren’t utensils or tools like rocks or snow. You could say that you have use for the tickets, but is this helping you to function like a couch or table? I have no idea if the tickets are in fact Muktza, but if they are it would be because of this rule and it would be similar to why money is muktza. Now, I think I read an article in the Jewish Week about a girl who walked downtown from the Upper West Side to see a concert, had a friend waiting there with drinks and stuff. She felt guilty, but didn’t. I think she brought up the escalator question which is an interesting one. Then, of course there is the carrying depending on where you are and lastly, my very favorite, the “spirit of Shabbos” issue. Could this be Halachically sound and yet completely counter to the spirit of Shabbos? It’s like my fellow students who would walk to college on Yom Tov and sit in on their classes without taking notes. It just didn’t fly with me. But, seek out your own counsel, for I am just a merely blog commenter.
That picture is pretty funny. Typical for a BT under the Yechi wing of Chabad. Didn’t anyone tell him about not being able to walk daled amos without tzitzis??? Especially at the Kotel???
Maybe one of the shluchim just popped that yarmy on his head before you got there.
That comment is pretty funny. Typical for a Snag who hates Chabad in general, not only the Yechi wing. Didn’t anyone tell him about walking daled amos without Ahavas Yisrael? Especially during Elul?
do they make yechi wigs too?
Phil,
A) He is not a BT. His clothing at the kosel precludes that.
B) Shutup. Go back to cheder and learn some basic ahavos yisroel. Or kaf zchus. Or, judging by your response, shmiras lashon.
Thanks, utubefan. TRS, no need for name-calling. Snag is a divisive term that helps no one. Heterim, the intent behind your admonishment seems good; I don’t suppose anyone ever accused you of trying to catch flies with honey, though, did they?
I don’t understand people having anything against Chabad, in general. Disagreeing with the meshichists, yeah, sure. I haven’t personally encountered any meshichist chabadniks, but I reckon their intent, as far as kiruv goes, is as good as the next sh’liach’s.
Am I wrong about that (in general)? Maybe someone who knows better can clue me in, here.
I was merely returning fire with boiling oil, tossed over the metaphysical ramparts with the aid of three hundred years of persecution.
Yes, I may not have been nice, but as the great Solomon once said, there is a time for everything; a time for peace, and a time for war. Lubavitchers of the world unite! Yeah, that’ll be the day. The only time you can actually get Chabad people to agree on anything is when the rest of the world is trying to eliminate them.
You want a discussion on Meshichists? Please don’t. It’s a discussion that’s been had a (and I’m not kidding here) million times, and no good has ever come out of it.
nothing to discuss, just wondering if they do kiruv work (not interested in debating the meshichist part, I am in tune with my reality; it differs from theirs; we are all human). Your first sentence is mighty poetic. I appreciate that, even if I disagree with it. “The only time…agree on anything…” If that’s true, that’s sad. I don’t suppose it’s got more intra-disagreements than Jews, in general, though.
If one finds devekus through temimus, what does that make one, [not snag, not chassid, but a fan of both chassidus and mussar with a side of hisbodedus, with priority on kavanah over zerizus and zehirus]? Is there a word for that? I call me Sarah.
(apologies to anyone reading this who knows how to pronounce a taf. I’ll start using mine again soon.)
Yeah, they do what you touchingly call “Kiruv”. No Lubavitcher would be caught dead using that word. See, a guy once came to the Rebbe and told him that he’d made a Minyan for Jews who were far away from Judaism. The Rebbe said, “What? You’re calling the descendants of Avraham, Yitzchak, and Yaakov far from Judaism? No Jew is far!”, or something very much like that.
Anyway, most mainbstreamers would prefer that Meshichists not go out and bring Jews closer to their father in heaven, because they tell them “the wrong things”, which I’ll leave to your imagination. Still, they’re doing what they think is right, which btw is not an excuse. Lehavdil Elef Havdalos, the nazis also thought they were doing what was right.
Meanwhile, yes, we fight a lot, but not more than any other Jews I suppose. Still, ours seem to have a nasty habit of spilling over into everyone else’s laps.
Sarah, you’re the same as everyone else. No one is purely this or that; we’re all composites of all the experiences we’ve ever had, a beautiful mosaic of the many different streams of rock that were all hewn from the same rock of the Living G-d.
Yes, I vomit as I write such corny lines, but they happen to be true, which I suppose is one redeeming factor in their favor.
I certainly don’t think I’m (doing) anything special, just learning, evolving. “If we didn’t breathe, we’d all be dead.”
-Dr. Annie Eyeball, Sesame St.
I like the word kiruv ’cause the colloquial meaning is the opposite of its literal meaning.
What sort of words might a Lubavitcher use [to describe the outreach/homecoming for yidden-type work for which Lubavitchers are well-known]? (not that you or anyone who answers this question necessarily represents the views of anyone but him/herself)
I can understand people having concerns regarding/ vehement objections to even the most well-intentioned misinformation being presented under their group’s particular banner. My heart goes out to those whose day-to-day this sort of situation affects.
TRS, I feel your corny lines. I think it should be a given to be part of our foundations as Jews and yet so many of us like Phil are so “far from” that belief system. I believe they need Kiruv.
To TRS and Utubefanall,
First of all I AM a member of a big CHABAD community. My 5 kids go to Chabad scholls and so did I. I daven Tehillas Hashaem in a Lubavitch minyan since before my BAr Mitzvah, and went through the Tomchei Tmimim scholl system. Furthermore, I still do Chitas, 3 perakim of Rambam per day, and attend the 6:30 LUBAVITCH minyan every day.
TRS
Before accusing my of being an “evil SNAG” and telling me we’re in the month of Elul, I suggest you take a long hard look in the mirror.
Utube fan:
What makes you think that I’m “far from the belief system”?
The fact is that anyone wearing a yechi yarmy without tzitzis is either a BT or very confused. The hardcore yechi “ol timers” were kapotas all day as well as Borsalinos in addition to wool tzitzis only (as suggested in the Shulchan Aruch HaRav).
Anyway, I mention this before, I’ll say it again:
Al tistakel becancan ela bema sheyesh bo.
Good Shabbos.
To Sb and TRS,
Let’s get 2 things clear:
1) All Jews are Meshiachists, as we daven for Moshiach and the geulah many times per day. The “misguided” people in Chabad should rather be referred to as “yechi” people in my opinion.
2) Living in a predominantly “Yechi” community, we have crazed indivduals shouting “yechi” 3 times at various intervals during davening. The school and camp is even worse. One of my kids even came home with a stencil Hagada in which the kids were drawn with “yechi” yarmulkas. I obviously do not share the “yechi” belief, and my older kids share my opinion, even though they were spoon fed “yechi” since kindergarten.
That being said, I have very good friends that are “yechi” people, and they are great guys. I am not one to fight or argue with others based on their beliefs, I have non Jewish and non frum friends too.
To quote Rodney King:
Ouch, Ouch, Ouch…
Just kidding:
Why can’t we all just get along?
Seems like the last post didn’t work:
To TRS and utubefan:
FYI, I AM a member of a large Chabad community, and have been since first grade in Tomchei Tmimim. My 5 kids are all in the Lubavitch school system as well.
TRS: Look in the mirror before accusing people of being “evil snags” that need to repent in Elul.
utubefan:
What made you think I was “far from the belief”?
“What made you think I was “far from the belief?”
Phil, this did:
“Typical for a BT under the Yechi wing of Chabad. Didn’t anyone tell him about not being able to walk daled amos without tzitzis??? Especially at the Kotel???
Maybe one of the shluchim just popped that yarmy on his head before you got there.”
Your frustration with the Yechi people is coloring your view of your fellow Jews and somehow acting as a computer virus against the strong screening software that you should have in place which would prevent you from making comments about fellow Jews like the one above. That’s all.
BTW, I feel the same way that you do about the Yechi people and I’m not Lubavitch. I have friends and aquaintances that are. I know that more Lubavitch people than we think subsribe to this ideology. I think Chabad is great and I wish this component was not a part of it. As a teacher, I don’t know why any of you put your kids in schools that teach them ideas that are completely antithesis to your belief system. It’s tough, but why don’t you guys make a statement by starting your own Cheders? Maybe you already have, but I am not aware of it. And wouldn’t it be grand if you guys publicly made the distinction for your kids. Just asking. Not trying to come off judgmental.
On a positive note, when I think of Chabad, I think of Matisyahu (the original, not the shoe model). When he said “Mi LaHashem Elai!” Come on over here–whoeever is with Hashem! A. We want you and we need you B. Take a stand for Judaism, for G-d C. We are with you. And we aren’t going to get into the semantics right now about whether you keep Shabbos or not and where you are currently at. Mi LaHashem Elai! It’s how I feel about a guy wearing shorts like those at the Kotel. He is taking some kind of stand for G-d.
utubefan,
Again, living smack in middle of one of the most extreme “yechi” Chabad communites, the school choices aren’t that great. We chose the Lubavitch school system for our kids due to a number of factors, incuding hashkafic belief, lack of other school that met certain criteria. cost, etc.
Again, I don’t have anything against the people, although I utterly disagree with what they blieve in. We started our own shul free of Yechis, maybe a school will happen somewhere down the road.
Chabad is a great organization. I know Chabadniks that ride Harleys and are martial arts instructors.
Most of them are good shots too!
I even have a few pictures of Lubavitchers with guns and Harleys!
DoubleTapper
DoubleTapper@gmail.com
DoubleTapper, blogging on Guns Politics Defense from Israel
Yechi adonainu, moireinu v’rabeinu, Melech hamoshiach L’Olam Voed,
Yechi adonainu, moireinu v’rabeinu, Melech hamoshiach L’Olam Voed,
oy yoy, yoy yoy yoy, oh hu oy, oy yoy, yoy yoy yoy, oy yoy, yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy yoy yoy!!!
Thank you Hemishe because I never could figure out anything of the song past the first words.
The guy was with a bunch of people wearing cardboard yarmulkes- even Obama didn’t wear cardboard at the kotel
Phil, please, forgive me, for I have sinned most grievously. Actually, I took a deep long look in the mirror and think that I’m all right. You should know, living in a Chabad community, that we actually aren’t big into putting Tzitzis on people. I’ve gone on Mivtzoyim a thousand times, and never done it, and I’d venture to say that very few people do.
I don’t daven for or long for moshiach or for l’shana haba b’yerushalayim (if I want that, I’ll buy a plane ticket and make it my reality). If you hear me singing ani ma’amin or anything else that’s all [yippee skippy, I want moshiach to come], that’s, at best, pure na’aseh v’nishmah, but more likely love of a tune, on my part. I’ve shared my views on moshiach here before and will not bore anyone with them again. I feel for everyone who commented and wish them the best.
So noted, Phil; I disagree with some of my family members, as well as some of my favorite people, on any number of topics every day. I tend to ignore those parts and love them for who they are. If I cried for everything that bothered me about what someone else believes, my clothes would surely be mistaken for handkerchiefs. Have a good shabbos (and if you’re not having a shabbos, have a good tonight and tomorrow).
(quick, someone get some smelling salts for heimish, who fainted at the suggestion that someone might not be having a shabbos [I'm kidding, man].)
TRS,
Funny how we never got into putting Tzitzis on people, mivtzoim was always about tefillin, menorahs and of course tzedaka.
You should know as well as I do that many of the people that wear yechi yarmies are people that actually never met the Rebbe. When you remove all those people from the equation, you will realize that there are probably more non yechis in most Chabad communities (with a few exceptions). Another major reason the Yechis seem so popular is because they are EXTREMELY vocal and “showy” about their beliefs. How many non yechis do you see screaming that the Rebbe is NOT moshiach, or wearing “non yechi” yarmulkas?
Obviously, we can go back and forth forever, I personally follow the views of the Rambam as stated in Hilchos Melachim which in my humble opinion completely invalidate the Rebbe as Moshiach. Seems like many of the yechi people I know followed the Rambam’s opinion until after Gimmel Tammuz when they suddenly needed a new “proof”. They then turned to a sicha they twisted to serve their cause, the rest is history.
Anyway, snags are a meshiachists too as far as I’m concerned, so is anyone the davens and bentches with any devotion.
Good Shabbos.
Yes, it is funny, isn’t it. Still, it’s what the Rebbe wanted, and I assume that you won’t be arguing with me on that point.
Your argument about most Meshichists only coming to Chabad after 3 Tammuz is bogus. Go to any Chabad House and you’ll find that a great number only came to Judaism after 3 Tammuz. Is there a problem with them too? How about all the kids nowadays, many going now into Yeshiva, who never saw the Rebbe? What about them?
I will agree, however, that the vast majority of Lubavitchers are not Meshichists. I use that word in the currently accepted sense; it’s cute to say that anyone who believes in and wants Moshiach is a Meshichist, but it’s annoying and doesn’t advance the argument. For all practical purposes, there are two types of Lubavitchers: Those who believe the Rebbe is Moshiach, but don’t broadcast that belief, and those who do proclaim their faith.
Yes, the Meshichists are very vocal, but only in certain places. I don’t think that anyone really believes that they are anything but a vocal minority.
I’m sorry that you learned Rambam and came up with that conclusion; all my teachers and Mashpiim, many of them notorious “Antis”, taught me differently. Each to their own, I suppose.
Happy Holidays.
TRS
I definitely disagree that all Lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe is still moshiach, though many did think he was the “prime candidate” during his lifetime. All chassidim believe that their Rebbes are moshiach. This dates back to the times of the talmud, where all talmidim believed their rabbeim to be moshiach as stated in the Gemara. Furthermore, they actually lived as if moshiach were coming that day; they had people keeping laws of tumah for hundreds of years after the Beis Hamikdash was destroyed, just so they could produce items needed for korbanos in Tahara. These individuals were the true “meshichists”.
Rambam clearly states that for one to be considered as moshiach he needs to rebuild the Beis Hamikdash in it’s place (not Brooklyn), needs to compel all jews to return, etc. He also states that Rabbi Akiva who believed that Bar Kochba was Moshiach changed his opinion when Bar Kochba was killed, using this as a backup for the fact that moshiach must be part of the living.
I know that tzadikim that passed away are still considered alive to some extent (Yaakov lo meis), but I don’t believe that they are alive in the same sense of what is implied, otherwise we wouldn’t have the Ohel or any other kivrei tzadikim.
Anyway, I hope that moshiach will show up soon, if at least just to solve this issue for once and for all, which unfortunately seems to have divided Chassidic jewry even more than it was before.
TRS,
It’s not fair to say such a thing. I’m sure you saw the letter on Shturem and CH.info. It’s one thing to say that nishmas Admur is moshiach – as is Moshe and Dovid, Shlomo, Rambam, Rashi, Baal Shem Tov, Alter Rebbe, etc.. That it has any halachic basis in the gashmius world is a little ridiculous though.
Phil and Hippie: I would have to disagree with you guys here. Fact is, the vast majority of Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is Moshiach. They may tell you differently, but they believe it to be so.
If you want verification, just go to any 11 Nissan, 10 Shevat, or 3 Tammuz Farbrengen, after midnight, and see what people are saying.
As for whether this belief is correct Halachicly or Hashkafically…Honestly, I don’t know enough to argue intelligently either way, so I won’t.
TRS,
Sad but true. My question is what happens when a “snag” or Sefardi ends up being moshiach? Will Lubavitchers tell him to go back to Lakewood or refuse to eat his shechita? What about the future Cohen Gadol, will he be forced to come from Beylorussia in order for us to accept his korbonos?
I think the Lubbies don’t really believe in moshiach- it just gets them more attention and gives them excuses to make fabrengins.
Phil: We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. Personally, I don’t think it’s going to happen, but…
Heshy: I’ll assume that your words were a joke, because otherwise I’d have a reason to get quite offended.
B”H
Re: the photo of [which I believe is in Meah Sha'arim], why shouldn’t people have control over how one dresses in their neighborhood? If pretty standard, no “burkas.” What do you want? …that bitch Shulamit Eloni YSh”W walking around there again in a halter top, to “make a point?”
Re: The Kotel, sure there should be a dress code. No messianic Chabbad crap allowed.
First item on the dress code should be banning those kippot.
I’m happy people pray. G*d doesn’t care what they wear. Does he?
That is up for debate- depends on who you ask.
When I went, there definitely was a dress code for women at the Kotel, as someone else mentioned.
Dude, you are so write about the dresscode – Firstly because most Israelis dress like Portoricans (That wasnt my Joke, that was my Charedi Sister-in-law from Balitome…)
Also, as apposed to My Long Island congregation in the Seventies where as a kid I was forced to dress like Tony Orlando, most Sephardi congregations even on Shabbat accept kids dressed in any dress, and the Ashkenazi Jews are lightenning up as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNXKFYe8UOg