So I was having a chat with one of my fans about where I was going stay in Israel, and that happened to be at a random girls house whom I had never met- but had several good friends in common. The person I was chatting with comes from a more “frum” for lack of better term environment, and asked me if I had felt uncomfortable with staying at single girls houses. Of course not was my answer, I just never felt weird about staying at girls houses, the only problem with staying at women’s houses in my view, is not being able to walk around in your underwear and trying to find normal shampoo amidst a sea of hair care products and razors.
But it did get me thinking about separation of the sexes, you see contrary to what some of you may think- I grew up in the kind of home that felt it okay to have girls sleep over and visa versa- I never did have a girl sleep over until I was 20 years old or something, but still it wasn’t an issue. While my high school was the exact opposite, you couldn’t even talk to girls. In fact we were encouraged to look down and gaze away from Victoria’s Secret billboards- which we never did listen to.
I can remember having the “frum people against coed schools” argument versus the “how will they ever learn to talk to their wives” argument posed by the modern orthodox people, this was talked about at countless shabbos tables- with the same results. Happens to be that I don’t think it makes a huge difference, the can’t concentrate on studies argument posed by frummies who claim that girls distract you (I know they do because in college whenever a girl would sit down in front of me and have her thong sticking out of her little jeans I couldn’t concentrate) seems to go out the window with the fact that kids who go to coed schools almost always do better in school then the kids in single sex schools- thats of course usually based on the subject material.
This argument can go on all day- but basically I have no issues with staying at girls houses, in fact they make better hosts and you aren’t freaked out by their bathrooms and kitchens. SA special thank you to Rivkah Naditch and Chana Leaf for hooking me up with their couches in Nachlaot- it was very appreciated.
I expect some good discussion over this one.
- Separation of the sexes does not cause the Shidduch crisis
- MO Rabbis say texting on shabbos is better than talking in shul
- Dont you just love talking to Shadchunim
- Don’t worry I’m not going to have sex with your daughter at the shabbos table
- Israeli film “The Secrets” portrays lesbian love in seminary
-->
{ 38 comments… read them below or add one }
People of either gender are welcome to crash on my couch. I wouldn’t arrive anywhere I was crashing (planned) without some sort of shorts or pj bottoms, out of courtesy to my host(s).
That said, if I caught a glimpse of a male guest of mine’s [future of the Jewish people], I’d immediately encourage him to put on shorts or offer him a blanket for his lap (then seek extensive rabbinic counseling).
A bit of shame, think of your wife.
I too used to be proud of my abillty to causually associate with girls.
However if you do it too well you will be a dud when you need to associate with your wife.
Your sexual feelings are important and should not be dulled by years of impassive blase attitude toward girls.
Imagine the tingle you can get by looking at Her pinky.
Imagine the dullness in marriage, if you have a nonchalant attitude.
Sorry about your s(b.).
I have a whole long post I want to write about the separation of the sexes in the orthodox community, But will wait to see if Hesh’s expectations will first be fulfilled by others.
it went to spam
thank you, counselor.
NO!!! my comment went to spam!!!
I am hoping Hesh posts it.
I realize that. I was just joking.
mine too!
can you loosen the spam filter???
No I cannot loosen the spam filter- of course you frummies will want it on because then it becomes a festival of porn comment on the site. I get over 1000 spam comments a week and don’t need to deal with that. Dont worry I check my spam que every day.
Excitement from looking at her pinky eh? Are you one of those people that doesn’t make it past the undressing on the wedding night. One pump chumps.
Nah I’m joking, I understand what you are saying and yes my sex drive is still strong even after all the casual associating with women.
I meant your job.
thanks, heimish.
This is always an interesting point when chatting to my (youngish and married) very frum Rabbi, who pretty much never talked to a girl outside of family until his wife.
One of the explanations has always been that this will prevent a lack of excitement or sexual drive in your future wife; however as someone who isn’t very frum, went to a co-ed school and has many female friends (and a girlfriend) I can tell you that this simply isn’t the case; if you are in love with a woman then your sexual excitement will be the same regardless of how many other woman you know (or even have been with sexually).
This isn’t to deny any value in seperation; merely to explain that in my practical experience the explanation of lesser sexual excitement isn’t justified.
I thought there was all kind of secular research showing that elementary school boys and girls learn differently and thus better in separate classrooms.
I always preferred to study with boys and have them as my lab partners in high school, but after being in seminary and then going to college I can definitely see the merit in separate sex education. It’s just…. less awkward.
Casual familiarity with superficial gab with women doesn’t denote inability to be deeper and connect with a wife. They are not necessarily related.
You want a good example of bad results of separation of sexes? Current Catholic priest sex scandals. Boys on track to be priests don’t start out of nowhere at twenty any more than rabbis do. In Catholicism, they are on track from the time they were altar boys and thence through religious school straight to seminary and on to priest. No girls, no socializing, no sex, no ever understanding their own urges through experience.
Guaranteed bad idea.
The difference is, with the Orthodox community you have a more encompassing and supporting community to help keep the truly religious members on the straight and narrow, whereas with priests, they are on to an assignment and on their own in a largely secular world.
Despite that, the same human problem remains. Lack of familiarity breeding undue curiosity, combined with lacking to ineffective moral training on a useful emotional level (the golden rule and empathy are extremely under utilized and under appreciated) means a problem somewhere somewhen.
Either obsession with women or sex that sometimes spills from private problem to public embarrassment, or mistreatment of women such as taking women for granted and putting too much emphasis on sex, or even just feeling doubtful and disapproving of oneself which over time causes unnecessary hurt to the person.
You really had problems thinking when a girl with a visible thong was across from you at school? Heh. I used to have girls wearing no bra and only a vest in some of my classes in the summer and more than once, their b-cup spilled over. Didn’t faze me a bit and I like naked girls just fine.
It’s just nothing special when something more important is going on. Balance and firm grip on perspective was taught to be early when it came to sex and women.
Question: If you’re staying at a guy’s house, do you lounge around in your underwear? I can’t imagine that most heterosexual guys would be into hanging out in their underwear (not literally, and no pun) with their (non-relative) friends / houseguests. (but what do I know?)
Oh I have been there and done that. Here are some of the hard learned rules I figgered out.
1. Due to “appearances” to the untrained eye, you should only stay at your friends house when you enter there dressed up like a woman. That way no one will think she is losing her virginity. 2. If she is no longer a virgin, you should only stay at your friends house when you enter there dressed up like a woman. That way no one will think you are losing your virginity.
3. Alternatively, if you find it distasteful or are embarrassed to wear women’s clothing, leave all the windows opened and all the lights on at all times to prevent anyone from using their imagination about what is going on inside. If there is no view inside, you will need to video tape everything on her computer and leave a sign on the door of the website it is feeding.
4. If that is not working for you, she will need to convince everyone that you are her brother, step brother, or first cousin. If that doesn’t work she is going to have to tell everyone you are gay.
5. Or you can use the fire escape to get in and out.
6. Or Wear a tool belt and carry something with wires sticking out whenever you leave.
7. Also, walk loudly and talk to yourself alot so she can tell where you are (so you don’t sneek a peek), or if you want to get a peek then walk quietly, exhale really quietly when you sneak around, and yank open the doors suddenly a lot.
Actually, the benefits of a single sex classroom are extensive. Jackson and Bisset state that “there appears to be a common conception that co-education is good for boys but that single-sex schools have advantages for girls” (Jackson & Bisset, 2005.) This perception of these parents is affirmed by the data Jackson presented in her article from 2002,” Can single-sex classes in co-educational schools enhance the learning experiences of girls and/or boys? An exploration of pupils’ perceptions.” Which leads us to our next question, does it help the boys and/or the girls to learn in a single-sex classroom?
Jackson cites research studies that have brought the notion of single-sex classrooms into a positive light because they concentrate on test results, especially those of high math and science courses. During the 1990’s much of the information is centered around the ‘disadvantaged male’ and concentrates on discussing how well girls have benefited from their single-sex classroom educational experiences. Because of this, schools (specifically that of Shady Acres in the UK) took up the single-sex classroom model in the hopes of enhancing the learning for their boys who were falling behind in math. The responses from the girls were positive. They were not embarrassed to answer questions or raise their hands, and thought it was better than a co-ed classroom. One female student acknowledged that this was “because like girls get embarrassed if they get it wrong in front of boys and they might laugh at you and everything” (Jackson 2002). The response from the boys was quite different. One boy in particular stated that his grades actually improved when he was returned to a mixed class. His statement, “since I’ve been with a mixed class I’ve had better marks because I used to chat to my friends a lot in the boys’ class but now I’ve gone into the other class, I get better marks” (Jackson 2002) shows us just what the problem is within the single-sex classroom for boys. Their concentration rate does not go up when they are isolated from the girls. Their self-esteem and support system is not increased amongst their male only cohorts. Instead, quite the opposite is true. Jackson shows through her research that the problem with single-sex classroom when it is all boys is that the pedagogy is simply trying to work in a “curriculum-as-usual” format. Thus, the idea that taking all the girls and putting them together in a classroom to enhance their mathematical scores is not necessarily going to be true across the board for the male students as well. She states that;
“Although it is unclear precisely how advocates of single-sex curriculum-as-usual classes think such arrangements will help to enhance the levels of achievement amongst the boys, an increasingly competitive and aggressive environment is surely not the solution. On the contrary, it seems essential that we attempt to reduce the macho or ’laddish’ cultures evident in schools; in part because they reinforce hegemonic forms of masculinity and also because they are purported to be linked to an anti-school ethos.” (p.45)
Sadly, when the boys were in a single-sex classroom, the amount of bullying went up, they were not supportive of each other and the smaller boys ended up taking the place of “girls” within the classroom. They were harassed and treated in a homophobic manner to establish the boys‘ masculinity since girls were not present to do this. The boys on their own were unable to form a positive and nurturing environment for each other, thus their academic scores did not improve nor did their understanding of gender specific issues.
The Halachos (Laws) of Yichud forbid a single man and a single woman from sleeping in the same residence alone, at night. This halacha is just as important as keeping Shabbos or kashrus.
I hope you will make your future decisions regarding accommodations based on this knowledge.
Zing, can you please tell me the laws about whether or not it’s okay to take a shower on shabbos? cold is fine. I understand the part about not being allowed to heat water on shabbos. If you can do dishes on shabbos, is there a prohibition against washing oneself? thank you.
Separation of the sexes is overrated. Pinky, my ….
Separating the sexes is overrated.
Orthodox Jews ‘play’ with gender seperation. its a semi permeable seperation, that can be very erotic
s(b.)
I know you addressed that question to Zing but I couldn’t resist because I was just speaking about this with my Rav.
Basically, midoraisa it would technically be fine. No melachos are involved if you’re careful about, mainly, squeezing hair. But the Rabbonim made a takanna assuring any sort of bathing on shabbos (on yom tov you can get away with it to a degree) even with water heated before shabbos, because of the fear that you might come to warm it further.
Also – yichud isn’t limited to single man and single woman. There are entire seforim written on these halachos but basically unless there’s a good chance someone might come into a room and the door is open its generally issur to be isolated with someone of the opposite sex, whether they’re married or not.
This was just an FYI thing I’m not judging anybody especially given the zman we’re holding.
Perhaps the law allows one to clean (as in food) but the prohibition could be against the transformation of a smell from stinky to neutral. In the holy temple they were known to use many scented oils on the Kohanim and therefore the work used there are not allowed when we refrain from work on the Day of Rest. This is only a theory. Back me up on this Zing.
hesh – one pump chumps? LMTO!! I love it!!
Now what if the single women your staying with goes to mikvah?
Rob I love your comment!!!
ZING: Yichud is one of those things that people of my breed can never be strict on- we just can’t I would rather work on things I want to work on- I know hypocritical it may be- but shabbos, kasharus, learning and davening seem more important then yichud to me.
Besides how am I ever supposed to get any if I comply with the laws of yichud???
get married!!!!
Yeah, its rough
Easier said then done.
Simply getting married is not a solution — marriage would do well to include considerations like hashkafic compatibility, not just being human and well, human. If I were a guy, I’d rather deal with a gang of Breslovers lecturing me on shmiras habris than be in the wrong marriage. Easy for me to say, though. Men and women can be very different, sometimes.
Thank you, Chabadnik. I addressed my query to Zing, but I really didn’t care who answered it. I can understand the concern re: the body heating the water if one is taking a bath, but in the case of a shower, I -personally- would not find this to be an issue. I didn’t mean annointing oils, I just mean shampoo and soap.
Perhaps waiting to shower until 15 minutes before candle-lighting would be a better strategy (for me) for not feeling as in need of one on Shabbat as I did last Shabbat. Thanks again.
Does hanging out with girls kill a man’s sex drive? Because I just dated someone for like 7 months, but then he broke it off because he didn’t have feelings for me. Had I looked like Lindsay Lohan or Hillary Duff, that would have been a different story.
Do men become desensitized over time to normal jewish girls?
Do men lose their interest over time because they hang out casually with women?
Because I dated someone for 7 months. He broke it off because he didn’t find me attractive enough.
Hope Less, I’m sorry you had that experience and I wish he had told you sooner. Based on my own experiences, I’m going to say no. If you want to discuss this further (not here), leave an email address in a comment anywhere on my blog and I’ll write you tomorrow. (I know I’m not a guy, but I learned a bit about this the hard way, a couple of years ago.)
s(b.),
Just to clarify, I didn’t mean your body would come to warm the water. The Rabbonim banned any kind of bathing/showering because they were worried that you might find the water not warm enough and go light a fire or something. I’m with you it’s not practical – especially if you are willing to take a cold shower (braver than me in that case). But the Shulchan Aruch can’t be changed until Moshiach comes so we’re stuck with the takkana regardless of the original reason for it.
On yom tov there are ways to get around it, even with warm water!
okay, well, my opinions re: the arrival of moshiach would make it permissible for me, then. lol (your spiritual mileage and tons of other people’s no doubt may vary). I’m quite certain that showering at the last possible minute before shabbos would enhance my shabbos manyfold (as opposed to having just showered on Friday morning). Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my question (you and everyone else who responded to it).
G-d should have mercy on all of Bnei Yisrael and bring the Geulah right away.
Heshy I recommend the book “Doesn’t Anyone Blush Anymore?” by Rabbi Manis Friedman. It was an eye-opener for me on the dynamics between men and women as well as an entertaining read.
It is definitely easier to get randomly get play than to commit to one person for the rest of your life and hopefully have a rewarding intellectual, emotional and physical relationship with that one person.
That being said, it is often more difficult to achieve something of greater value.
One must weigh one’s priorities in life and decide what one desires more, and then make the sacrifices necessary to achieve what one truly desires.
I have to agree with the Yichud views of Chabadnik. Halacha is Halacha if that’s where the direction of this post is going. The general idea of unmarried youth of opposite sexes spending the night is contrary to any orthodox hashkafa, as it can possibly lead to premarital sex which is an issur that I believe is “Chayav Malkus”. So much for the 612ers…
Morally, I imagine it would be fine in this day and age, people usually start young and whether they do or don’t have any sex doesn’t make much if a difference anymore anyways. When schools give condoms out to 10 and 12 year old kids, what else can you expect?
Well lets use the analogy of single sex prisons and ask ourselves if that is the kind of social and romantic skills we want our young men and women to learn.
I was always for the idea of co-ed prisons, ever since they came out with co-ed dorms and co-ed bathrooms. I think the penal system (no pun intended) would be a lot less violent if the inmates were making love not war.