Apparently modern orthodoxy is doomed, at least according to some fellow who wanted to talk to me the other day. He went on this wild extremely negative rant about how modern orthodoxy was doomed like the middle class in America, in that either you were left wing which wasn’t actually orthodoxy or you were right wing which was more like yeshivish and everyone in the middle had to choose a side. He went on and on about how YU was being taken over by the yeshiva crowd and soon people from the “real” yeshiva world may actually begin to accept their smicha at full value- I told him I highly doubted that. After he was done- I said – AND WHY EXACTLY DO YOU CARE?
Who gives a Sh– is what I wanted to say. Does it really make a difference that people are moving to the right, I guess I fail to notice this right leaning movement because I really couldn’t care less, I let people live and go about my own business. I don’t notice any modern shuls raising their mechitzas or banning women from entering with their hair uncovered, to me open mindedness is what you make of it, some people are so open minded they become intolerant of all those that are not like them. If you think everyone is hating on you- then you will convince yourself. It just irked me that he was so negative- thats all- I am done ranting.
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“Who gives a Sh– is what I wanted to say. Does it really make a difference that people are moving to the right, I guess I fail to notice this right leaning movement because I really couldn’t care less, I let people live and go about my own business.”
That’s because you don’t have kids. Get married, join a shul, and send your kids to yeshiva and see how fast the shifting tides of community affect you.
No sense going down that blackhole only to discover you were right or wrong. You know the kid you have is the one who doesn’t have a choice to be here or not. Think twice before having one, you’re bringing them to a world that hates jews, ever increasing prices, the ever escalating war on the MUSLIM world, and the widening gaps between every sect of Judaism. Why have any period. It’s more like revenge by punishing a poor child by bringing them down to earth. You probably can’t afford it anyway.
Mordy I happen to disagree purely because I think its a mentality that exists before people have the kids. Most of the more progressive and open minded not giving two shits type people I know don’t complain about such things.
So it shifts- send your kid to another school if its that bad- I don’t understand how people can live in a place they disagree with so much and yet still live their- its like living a lie in my mind.
I used to have these views by the way and then like road rage I found them to be completely ridiculous- no kid is going to change that- but then again I have the “go f— yourself” kind of attitude that most sheep in the flock have too much fear to have.
If Mordy’s right, then Schechter and Heschel will be the new BY and SAR (two NY/NJ liberal yeshivot, two NY orthodox yeshivot).
Humanists will be the new reconstructionists; the reform and the traditional will merge to be the new conservatives; the old conservatives will be the new conservadox; cdox to MO; MO to machmir; potato, clamato. And the people who hate us will still hate us, regardless of what flavor we are, but it’s not about being hated, it’s about sharing love (hey, look, a butterfly just flew out of my …; I’m being serious, here, really). The world is still brothers and sisters and everyday people; we may not always like our family members, but with hard work, we can love them anyway, if we choose to make the effort. I didn’t say proximately. Sometimes giving each other a little physical space is a good thing. But sometimes it’s not. It’s a big world that needs more songs of the soul[1], imo.
[1] refers to Song of the Soul by Rav Kook
“So it shifts- send your kid to another school if its that bad”
Schools are not commodity grocery stores and kids are individual PEOPLE, not interchangeable cogs. You can’t switch your kids’ schools like swapping cell phone plans.
“I don’t understand how people can live in a place they disagree with so much and yet still live their”
This goes to your lack of life experience. People have reasons for living in places beyond the force of gravity. Perhaps they’re stuck in their job, need to care for a parent, can’t afford to move, or something else. People with more ties in their life cannot just get up and move somewhere else like you can.
“I used to have these views by the way and then like road rage I found them to be completely ridiculous- no kid is going to change that- but then again I have the “go f— yourself” kind of attitude that most sheep in the flock have too much fear to have.”
As a fellow publisher of frum satire, I think my bona fides as fearless are beyond reproach. I stand by what I said: your opinion on this is limited by your inexperience and lack of communal ties (e.g. kids).
“Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.” –Janis Joplin
I used to rant like Hesh, about not changing, and not giving a s—-, but Mordy is right, in my opinion, having kids, changes everything, and I mean EVERYTHING. I was supposed to leave bp a million times, but I have other responsiblities, that keep me anchored in this god-forsaken town.
Hesh, I’m sorry to say it and in the end it doesn’t matter to you right now, but…kids do change everything. Paying the mortgage, tuitions, responsiblities to parents, job, hopefully a Rav, etc. These are things that tie you down. The fact is that parents want to set their kids on a path that they think is right. The more conscious, connected, and caring the parent, the more the shifts in tide in the school and Shul approaches will matter to them. You can’t just change schools when there are hardly any that follow your chosen path for your family–and you will choose a path for your kids or you won’t be living in the real world of a parent. I actually know those types–some here in Monsey in the upper regions. It seems the further North you go, the more it you find. The reality is that if you don’t give crap about this stuff, you can wind up with some seriously dysfuntional kids who see stuff at home that doesn’t match with what the schools are saying or what the Shuls are saying. It really does matter, but maybe not right now on your blog which is OK. The old fogies among us may have to take a step back if what concerns us offends you. BTW, you can still love all Jews and try to find the good in them while trying to maintain a path that is true to you and your family. It isn’t so much about hatred or intolerance as it is about being run over and left with your kids and you sitting on the side of the road scratching your head.
Check out what happened recently at Breuers. It seems that some leader there feels that Rav Shamshon Rafael Hirsch’s path is not meant to be followed without the Rav actually being here. You see, the whole Torah Im Derech Eretz/Breuers and Torah U’Madah/Y.U. approach is not being tolerated and each movement is not producing enough leaders to push it forward. It’s not about bitterness and intolerance. It’s just a predicament and the people who care don’t know what to do about it. Even if you run away to live out of town which is a lot healthier, the reality is that the right wing Rabbis and educators are making their own schools and Shuls that are competing with the old inclusive day schools and Shuls. Less members for the middle of the road shul or school. It’s a big problem all around.
It seems that this only exists in the major Jewish communities within 200 miles of NYC.
I do understand about the children aspect-and I understand about the lack of life experiences I guess I have just lived in smaller communities that it didn’t matter because everyone went to one school like it or not.
I have not noticed any shift to the right in modern orthodoxy. The schools are still the same as when I grew up- to me its only YU that is moving to the right and a handful of kids coming back from their years in Israel.
I am not talking about the yeshiva world- they are moving way to the right on the surface and way to the left in the underground (wife swapping, materialism, internet, blogging, disent towards leaders, etc…) but as a whole I don’t think its an issue.
Or maybe I’m just playing devils advocate here…this you will never know.
I have no problem with other people moving to the right or to the left…
But I think the fact remains that most people prefer stability to change in their daily lives and neighborhoods.
Shifting tides in any kind of community – religious, ethnic, cultural, etc. – is inevitable but never convenient. It affects the dynamics between neighbors and therefore all the residents are affected, even if it only means that you went from Mr. A Dime a Dozen to Mr. Cheese Stands Alone.
If you allow yourself to think solely in terms of left and right, you’ve already lost.
The man you dealt with shows a slightly more than normal and more obsessive than normal case of human either-or binary thinking. That there are two states. Light or dark, white or black, yes or no, one side or the other.
The alternative is not the equally simplistic middle of the road. To compromise between everything would be like the story of Solomon and the women fighting over the baby… being retold by the Zucker Bros. “Divide the baby, yes, that’s it!”
“No!”
“Why not? It’s a perfect compromise!” (raising sword)
“Noooooooo!”
Everything needs to be taken one bit at a time and decided on its merits but clearly this world is moving away from that. Everyone is polarizing and glomming on to simplistic answers, and mostly going with whatever gets them out of thinking too much which is how those who do their thinking for them like it because it empowers them, not the sheep.
I’m against abortion almost unequivocally, and could only see it if it was done extremely early on and only to save the mother’s life. Other than that, you live with the consequences of your actions and live up to the responsibilities. Children are a good solid physical manifestation of the rule I go by, that life is what happens while you are making other plans. Literally.
On the other hand, I’m dead set against the death penalty. Nope. No reason for it at all. None. I go by Kull the Conqueror’s view that to strike a man down in the moment of his crime in a fair one on one fight is one thing, but after that the man is just a man, and should have clemency and we should have dignity.
Others may not agree with me, but Republican vs. Democrat, left vs. right, it’s not that easy. Those who treat it as that easy are that easy. Liberals are often self-aggrandizing elitist doofs and conservatives tend to be thick headed hard hearted solve every problem like Alexander solved the Gordian Knot types. But they MAKE THEMSELVES that way by strictly adhering to binary thinking.
Remember Hillel and his question about who he was and for? Binary people quickly add, “if I am not for X, I must be against X and for Y.” People who take one side or another often do just to be against the other guy.
jeez i’m beginning to think the communists had the right idea, one massive school and toss everyone in, eventually there wont be any more right or left wing crap.
“wife swapping, materialism, internet, blogging, disent towards leaders, etc…”
Haha, blogging, like it’s a sin!
Before you have children, you do need to think about what internal changes in Orthodxy (whether it be a shift to the right or anything else) would mean. You say if the winds change, you can send your kids to a different school. How far are you willing to go for that? I have been living away from home since I was 13 because local schools didn’t work. Are you willing to do that?
Kids, bills, a marriage, family commitments tie you down and will make it difficult to up and eave if situations on the ground change.
Also, if you like to read scholarly-type books, there’s a very interesting book about the situation–Sliding to the Right, by Samuel Heilman.
I have to agree with all of the parents here – these things make a huge difference when you have children. I for one have had serious issues with the major shift to the right and it hits hardest when it comes to education.
It’s all true. I went to visit a Schechter school because I am on the great search for where to send my kids next year, and when we left I said to my husband “Don’t tell them, but they’re modern orthodox!” They are what the MO yeshivas used to be and the MO yeshivas are now straight up Orthodox. It’s very scary to parents like me. I care that my kids receive an education that reflects what they are seeing at home but I live in a community where it is not available. There is not even a shul around in which we feel comfortable!
This shift to the right is leaving a lot of young families unaffiliated and I wonder what it’s going to be like for my children and their peers in 10-15 years.
So why exactly I care is because it matters. A LOT.
If you follow a Rav, then what you do is right, but everyone tells you it’s wrong.
I sense the frustration with the polarization of Jewish sects in general and Orthodoxy in particular. I want two share a short thought.
I wish I knew what the source is, but basically the vort is that if you follow the kulos of both Hillel and Shammai, then you are a rasha. If you follow the chumros of both, you are a fool. In other words, pick one authority, and stick by them ALL the time. If people that claim to be Torah UMadda actually lived by the words and followed the example of Rabbi Soloveitchik, Modern Orthodoxy would be in a much much better place right now. The Rav was a tzaddik, and although I disagree with his approach, it is without any question a proper one.
The dividing line that determines what’s permissible and whats not within Judaism is the Shulchan Aruch. If you are living your life according to the words of the Rema and Mechaber, the Shach and Taz, then you are living a Torah lifestyle. Otherwise you’re not. It’s very simple. The portion of modern orthodoxy that has not and never did follow these guidelines is gradually beginning to leave “the fold.” The silver lining is that maybe now that division between frum and not will be stronger than ever and people won’t confuse emes for sheker.
Heterim are for hippies, the problems is that there are rumors, such as covering hair is a minhag, not Halocho. People who are MO genuinely believe that they ARE keeping Halocho, and that what everyone else does is just a Chumra.
There is a definite shift to the right, but this isn’t a new thing. It seems there are two ways for requirements to evolve.
1) “This seems like a nice thing to do” > minhag > minhag yisroel > virtual halacha
2) Actual halacha > “lets make sure we don’t violate halacha” > [give it a few centuries or millenia] halacha > “lets make sure we don’t violate halacha” > repeat
And occasionaly combinations of the two.
I know, this is a gross generalization, but historically it seems to be the way things develop. Take davening, for example. Over the years, songs and poems have been added, and are now considered obligatory. What makes davening a good example are the different versions that exist, each of which are acknowladged as legitamite. Yet would anyone dream of suggesting a shortened nussach? Or, for that matter, adding something now as an “official” part of davening?
It seems the slide may have gotten worse after WWII as the last couple of generations have pined for the Golden Age of shtetle. And the idea that the way Yiddishkeit is now is the way it always was doesn’t help.
In general I feel that everyone can do what they want – as long as they don’t try to impose their values and opinions on others (especially me). Unfortunatly, when one is part of a community, the community leaders are very often people who feel it is not only their right but their duty to impose their values upon the shul members / students etc. Usually because people with a live-and-let-live attitude aren’t attracted to those kinds of positions in the first place.
Which, as has been said, creates a problem when you have kids. I would like to find a school for my daughter where talking to a boy isn’t considered worse than eating traif, yet isn’t co-ed; won’t send her home with pictures of the yidden crossing the yam suf in shtreimels and curly peyos (these really do exist) yet will… ok, I don’t have an opposite for that. But I would like a school that has a sense of balance. They don’t seem to exist.
I definitely have noticed a shift to the right in the modern orthodox community I grew up in (it’s a town in north jersey that’s near teaneck). For instance, when I was a kid, all the mom’s wore pants, and few covered their hair outside of shul. As I got older, more and more women started covering their hair all the time (including my mother, who started covering her hair when I was 13 or 14, my best friend’s mom, etc), and threw out their pants, started keeping much stricter kosher (getting a soda at mcdonalds was no longer ok cause someone might see you).
It’s nice to say “why don’t you just move out if you have a problem with it”, but when I was 14 I couldn’t exactly move away. And my parents didn’t seem to have a problem with it.
I moved away as soon as I could.
The 5 Towns has 2 Reform Temples & 2 that are Consercvative. On several occassions I have attended friday night services @ Temple Sinai on Washington Ave. Rabbi Paula Winnig is bright, articulate and charming. Her devrei torah are light years ahead of bearded rabbis, inlcuding the befrocked ones. The cantor has a wonderful style and is truly insprirational even if your’e not religious. Unfortunately there is but a handful of souls at these services. The Reform movement does not have people in shul but they have money
Someone above mentioned the obsession with black and white. That’s not it at all. It’s the commitment to a Derech in Judaism and the support for that commitment. We can, as I mentioned, see and appreciate different paths, but we cannot raise our children to be educated in one that directly conflicts with the one we present at home. The communist method espoused above is a good thought, one that has worked out of NY for years; however, from Houston to L.A. that idea is being phased out in the pursuit of more right wing Yeshivot set up by Chareidi educators sent to be “Mekarev” those out of NY. I think they mean well, but their efforts are competing with the “community schools” and the whole “throw all the kids in one school” idea is dying. It’s a shame.
utubefan, does it boil down to a matter of cash is king and the school with the cheaper tuition wins, do you think, in some cases?
harris, are there any younger people there? I’m not too far from the five towns. I have often been inspired by the commitment and joy of reform and conservative jews — it’s different fun than orthodoxy, for sure, and takes some adaptation, the camp songs are different and in English sometimes, etc., but there’s a whole lot of ruach and ahavat yisrael going on there.
“Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.” –Janis Joplin
kris kristofferson dude!
s(b), no. While it is true that the more Chareidi schools have lower tuitions, that isn’t what is causing the decline and fall of MO. It is the sheer numbers being churned out by the Chareidi Yeshivos and the fact that so many of them are going into Jewish Education whereas hardly anyone in the MO world is. Out of town, it’s about the drive of the Lakewood “Shluchim” and the money they are given to start the schools. I’m not quite sure where that money is coming from, but the drive is totally L’Shem Shamayim, for what they deem is a very holy purpose. We need more purposeful Rabbis and teachers coming out of MO.
Do you mean like JTS and YCT, or did you mean something further to the right than that? I realized a while ago that I’d've been smart to go into education (summers off!). Here’s the problem — yeshivas don’t pay a living wage. My aunt is an English Studies (elementary grade school) teacher in the five towns. She works from 1-5, I think, but the pay is ___. My (relation) was an administrator at several MO/BY schools for many years; high level administrator; paychecks weren’t consistent; thousands were owed — maybe that’s BP for you.
And to pay a living wage, tuition needs to be paid. I don’t know where you’re from. RPRY was the MO yeshiva I went to as a kid (for a few years). For high school, it seems the options are Schechter, Heschel, Frisch, Bruriah, Shulamis, BY, (name of chreidi school here). I don’t know if Heschel is more liberal than Schechter. I wound up in public school for high school, but my other option would’ve been MO like Frisch, and really, there was no effing way I was going to be sentenced to wearing skirts and dresses every day ever again (such was my mindset then), so I didn’t.
What’s a liberal or now-center MO parent to do? Does one err on the side of “caution” and send the kids to a more orthodox school, if Heschel/Schechter is perceived as too liberal?
sorry; typo; chareidi; trying to work here, too.
And I’m not saying people don’t pay tuition. Of course they do. But if tuition is high enough to pay teachers a living wage, who will be able to afford to send their kids to yeshiva? And what fields are they in? I should be doing that!
HESH:
don’t take this the wrong way, but this post and your responses to comments on it exhibit a degree of immaturity on your part.
shavu’ah tov
ok, you probably did take that the wrong way.
just to clarify, i didn’t at all mean immaturity in the sense of juvenile, silly or irresponsible. i simply meant that you are not old enough or at a stage to understand certain things in life.
oh god. i can’t believe i just told someone that i know better because i am older.
Future Druggie:
do you anticipate being a “druggie” in the sense of using or selling?
The same issue occurs in essentially the same way in the conservative and reform movements. Is the community day school observant enough, too observant, etc. For those who find the day school too observant, which synagogue hebrew school will satisfy them. Can it be three days a week? Two days with some Shabbat service attendance? One longer day?
Of course, for most of the latter, the problem is whether shul or Hebrew school interferes with Soccer/Music/Baseball/Ballet/etc. and not whether the program is good or bad.
Speaking of tuition, for what I pay for a couple of kids at day school, I could probably afford to hire someone full time to pick my kids up from public school and have a daily private hebrew school.
Judging from recent events I would say that if JTS ever got another dynamic leader like R. AJ Heschel there would be a frantic stampede to the left among Jews and Rs. Blau and Schacter will be considered the right wing. All the rest…empty black suits and bekeshes.