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Is the word Goy offensive?

I have no idea how my simple funny picture making fun of global warming became an all out debate over whether the usage of the term Goy to refer to non-Jews is offensive or not. Since I would rather have the whole populace involved and in order to entertain you fine folks sitting in your cubicles- I decided to make a special post to give you the floor to battle it out.

I find the word Goy to be quite nasty and refrain from using it, however the term “goyishe” is used since its a hard to word to find such a yiddisher sounding replacement.

Is the word Goy offensive?

{ 148 comments… add one }
  • KissMeI'mShomer June 16, 2008, 11:13 AM

    I definitely think it depends on how it is used and the tone of voice it is used in.
    When I was a staff member at summer camp, the caretakers and custodial staff were regularly referred to as “the goyim,” as in “we have to call one of the goyim to fix the toilet” or “I’m not sweeping the floor, that’s the goyim’s job.” That, in my humble op, is highly offensive…

  • heshman June 16, 2008, 11:16 AM

    In what case would it be seen as nice?

  • s(b.) June 16, 2008, 11:36 AM

    :crickets:

  • hadassah June 16, 2008, 11:40 AM

    it started out as a mild word, meaning “from a different nation” – ie not jewish

    but in this day and age most of the time the way it is used is derogatory. shaigetz, shiksa, goyta (how many jewish women have the goyta to come and clean, as if it is demeaning to the woman herslef to clean….) goy – they are all words that my kids picked up in school and they all know they are not to use them at home.

    if someone bartered the price of something and said to you “I jewed him down” – you’d be upset right? the person doesnt realise he has insulted you because to him he means he bargained. He gypped me – he cheated me, this is a slur to gypsies implying that they are cheats.

    i could go on and on………anything that is benign when said in different tone can be offensive.

  • heimish in bp June 16, 2008, 11:48 AM

    s(b.) – stop it

    you know how it feels

    Hesh, I am working on something.

  • KissMeI'mShomer June 16, 2008, 11:51 AM

    “In what case would it be seen as nice?”
    I’m not quite sure, but I guess it can be “appropriate” in certain context, like when studying Talmud/Torah that mentions a “goy” or “nochri” vs. “yisrael” or “ivri”…?

  • KissMeI'mShomer June 16, 2008, 11:55 AM

    I also find “the schvartzes” a really offensive term…

  • G6 June 16, 2008, 12:05 PM

    I’m so glad to see I’m not alone!
    I find the word “goy” highly offensive, along w/ “Shaygetz” and calling one’s cleaning help the “Shiksa”…..
    We are supposed to set the EXAMPLE folks!

  • hadassah June 16, 2008, 12:05 PM

    Kiss me – i grew up hearing Schvartze in my home and it makes me sick to my stomach. even in blazing saddles, it was derogatory. again, its a simple word, simple meaning, but oh the tone….

  • abandoning eden June 16, 2008, 12:07 PM

    all the non jewish people I know (who knows what it means) find it offensive…..

  • heshman June 16, 2008, 12:13 PM

    All the terms are offensive- but we need some other points of view, aren’t there any other people on the right side of the bench. Or are all my readers a bunch of liberals.

  • s(b.) June 16, 2008, 12:17 PM

    heimish, I know how what feels? to be called a derogatory name because I’m Jewish? yes, I know how that feels. All the more reason I’m not into using words like goy, shiksa, shaigetz, shvartze, apikores, misnagid, etc. (just because it’s an in-house slur doesn’t make it right). I’m not saying you have to agree with me. Stop what? Stop commenting? You might get bored. lol. Quit picking on me. I’m not a stringed instrument. I have enough respect for my fellow humans to say that man or that woman, instead of that goy. If you think that tears away at the fabric of Judaism, that’s your right.

  • G6 June 16, 2008, 12:21 PM

    He he Heshy!
    You thought you were being CONTROVERSIAL!!
    Never expected people to actually AGREE with you for once, lol.

  • heimish in bp June 16, 2008, 12:22 PM

    OMG, I was referring to the crickets!!!!

    WOW, i didnt say boo about the word goy! I am not picking on you.

    chill, please

  • hadassah June 16, 2008, 12:26 PM

    hesh – you dare to call ME a liberal? i may choose to find that offensive……nah, not today.

    can anyone think of a situation where being called “Yid” by a skinhead or other such visible probably non jewish youth could be non offensive….so much has to do with the person using the slur.

    chris B – wake up, theres a discussion going on.

    if a non jew used the term goy when referring to himself, well then, i guess thats ok, but other than that i just dont get if it could ever be acceptable.

  • hadassah June 16, 2008, 12:27 PM

    heimish – s(b) – anyone want to explain about the crickets are am i just the only one not getting it….

  • Meg June 16, 2008, 12:28 PM

    Resident Gentile Opinion:

    Speaking as a non-Jewish woman who spends a lot of time in the Jewish world…I’ve heard it used a lot of ways. When people say, “What is the goyta doing here?” because I’m in the room, it’s clearly meant in a mean way. It’s offensive, especially because I’m usually there are an invited guest. In my experience, it’s almost always a secular Jew who says it. (Which means I often know more Hebrew than they do.) It’s not a nice term and when I’m referred to as one, it’s clearly meant to make me feel uncomfortable.

    On the other hand, I use it to refer to myself too, particularly when I’m in a Jewish situation and someone mistakes me for a Jew. (Easy to do, I wear long skirts, and I’m writing my thesis in Jewish studies, so I know a whole lot about Judaism.) But I say it in a distinctly self-deprecating manner as in, “Nope, I’m the resident goyishe girl.”

    I must say, I prefer the term gentile in reference to myself. It seems a lot…nicer and I rarely hear it used in the same tone as “goy/goyim.”

    • Anonymous January 22, 2013, 10:43 PM

      Either term that is used, it is to show seperation or difference between you and them. And that’s racism no matter how you excuse it.

    • Truth June 4, 2014, 3:02 AM

      +1 for: Any term used to show separation or difference between ‘your people’ and other people is racism no matter how you excuse it.

  • Texgator June 16, 2008, 12:31 PM

    Every day in davening we say “goy echad” to refer to the nation of Israel, don’t we? Clearly the term isn’t offensive by definition, it’s offensive depending on it’s usage. And we need SOME way to refer to the people of this world who aren’t Jewish. Would any term to describe this subset of humanity be considered “offensive”?

    • putetrekk February 19, 2015, 2:10 AM

      Try the words “people”, “person”, “he”, “she”, “humans”, works great.

  • JoeFlx June 16, 2008, 12:37 PM

    Funny I had to deal with this issue on my photoblog lately….

    http://joeflix.blogspot.com/2008/04/okay-youre-not-gonna-understand.html

    (See the comments)

  • hadassah June 16, 2008, 12:38 PM

    meg – i was at the hospital a while back with a friend doing tests, and the technician used a hebrew term, we asked him if he was jewish and he said “no, i am the token goy around here” . he seemed totally ok with referring to himself in that manner. it just didnt sit right with me.

    • putetrekk February 19, 2015, 2:13 AM

      Just as a pharamedic i know that call himself Tha nigger, not adviseble to call him that, not at all.

  • heimish in bp June 16, 2008, 12:40 PM

    ok, someone is saying something

    Hadasah, crickets is a term used when its quiet and you dont hear anything but the crickets,

    Hesh tried starting a contraversial-heated discussion, and s(b.) was alluding to the fact that no one was really biting. So i told her not make fun of Hesh, for if you look at her blog……She thought i was saying someting else and got all pissed.

    The end

  • hadassah June 16, 2008, 12:45 PM

    ok, thank you very much for explaining that. (whistles while slowly backing up into her corner)

  • A Jewish Music Insider June 16, 2008, 12:51 PM

    There is nothing wrong with the term goy. Just ask any of the goyim and they’ll tell you how they enjoy their goyishness. That they can be there in your time of need as a shabbos goy for example. I think Goy is a term of endearment. A term that non-jew just can’t properly explain.

  • Meg June 16, 2008, 1:00 PM

    This goy has rarely heard the term used as one of endearment, it’s usually irected toward me in a rather nasty way along the lines of

    “How did the goy learn Hebrew?” First, the person wouldn’t actually address me even though I was standing there and secondly, Jews don’t have a monopoly on Hebrew. I learned it the same way a person learns to read Latin or Greek–through careful study and practice.

    I hear myself referred to as a goy usually when I’ve just demonstrated some type of knowledge that a Jewish listener thinks I shouldn’t know like, I use the word “haredim” correctly in a sentence, or I know the tune to “Dayenu” or an number of a myriad other things which some people view as me stepping on their territory. The term is always used to indicate that I am out of line and shouldn’t know about something.

    I do NOT appreciate or enjoy it, frankly.

  • s(b.) June 16, 2008, 1:01 PM

    I wasn’t making fun of Hesh. I was joking around. Maybe I should put my jokes in brackets so you can identify them more easily.

    The fact that I thought of a Pink Floyd song and decided to post the lyrics on my blog only means that I thought of a song. Please don’t assign emotions to me, especially ones that I am not feeling. You doing that is the closest thing to something that would anger me, today. Please do not post assumptions regarding my feelings as if they are anywhere near accurate, as it is clear your perceptions of them are way off. Thank you.

    Can we get back to having fun now, please? (or at least some discussion) I am far more interested in reading what other folks have to say about things than I am in correcting anyone’s assumptions regarding my feelings (which are irrelevant to this discussion, anyway).

    Sorry you didn’t realize I was joking around, heimish. Jeepers. Please enjoy a frosty beverage of your choice and realize I’m not making fun of Hesh, nor do I think you’re really picking on me. It was a play on words that didn’t go over well. Not all jokes succeed. Oh, well.

  • Meg June 16, 2008, 1:03 PM

    Hassadah–I’m not thrilled with the term. I use “goy” around close friends who will appreciate the joke. Otherwise I use “gentile.”

  • abandoning eden June 16, 2008, 1:16 PM

    re the gentile thing- did you know that mormons also refer to all non mormans as ‘gentiles’? I thought that was only a jew thing…

    I think it’s like how when I refer to things I do as related to being a jew it’s ok (like writing in my ‘jew-blog’ as I call it), but if other people point that out I find it offensive. Similarly, if not-jewish people refer to themselves as a goy it’s usually ok, but if jewish people call them a goy it could be offensive. Also usually cause it’s meant in an offensive manner.

  • Anon. June 16, 2008, 1:26 PM

    I wonder if all of the above that just expressed their disgust for a neutral word that is usually used derogatorily would tell me this?

    Would you have a problem using/hearing it used in private among only yidden? Is it the possibility of offending goyim that bothers you or something else?

    I happen to have no problem with it as long as its not used derogatorily.

  • Dave June 16, 2008, 1:31 PM

    “Goy” is neutral to somewhat offensive in usage — there is only so polite a word that means “other; not one of us” can get. On par with the Japanese “gaijin”.

    “Shiksa” (or the lesser used “Shaigetz”) is offensive. It is used generally in a derogatory manner, and the root meaning is also offensive.

    “Shvartze” is quite offensive; the English cognate at this point is generally referred to by its first initial.

  • A Jewish Music Insider June 16, 2008, 1:34 PM

    I hope no one took my post seriously…If they did I do know a good therapist that can assist you in conjunction with the use of hypnosis and regressing you to your childhood memories to potentialy insert a sense of humor that you previously had never known.

  • Ari June 16, 2008, 2:02 PM

    Like a lot of things in life — I’m thinking methamphetamine addicts in regards to Sudafed and terrorists with planes — it’s always a few people that ruin it for the rest of us. Their stupidity or evil tends to inconvenience the majority, or worse.

    Throughout time, racists have gone nuclear, linguistically, with words of crass construction –turning otherwise neutral words into ones that offend. As others have pointed out, it’s all in the tone. Anything said with a contemptuous sneer or tone is automatically ugly.

    I’m thinking: Negro, Jew, Yid, Kike, Schvartza, Goy, Shiksa. And so on.

    Agree with Meg here. And yes – “gentile” is more genteel, not to mention gentle. Which is pretty much the point, right?

  • Michele June 16, 2008, 2:03 PM

    I should probably pipe in here. I’m not Jewish and not studying Judiasm. I identify myself as Catholic but am not practicing.

    I have Jewish friends who have called non-jews goy’s in my presence, but only when referring to others. Usually it’s used in a general sense. It’s almost always deragoratory. I think this is why that haven’t called me one, to my face at least.

    I personally don’t object to the word if it’s used factually. But in my experience (albiet limited), and from what I’ve read, it’s not used factually. It’s meant to be a put down. I prefer the word gentile becuase it doesn’t have a negative connotation to it.

    By the way, I read this blog because it’s great, even though I don’t always understand the references.

  • s(b.) June 16, 2008, 2:09 PM

    Here’s another word I don’t like: towelhead. A co-worker of mine just used it in reference to someone who rear-ended him on the GWB yesterday. Yeah, his back’s messed up again and he’s hurting (not sure how his car is), and he’s not a happy camper, but I don’t feel that excuses his use of that term in a derogatory manner. Me, every morning when I get out of the shower, I could be called a towelhead for a few minutes. 🙂

  • Chavi June 16, 2008, 2:12 PM

    I’m late to the party, I guess … I don’t think it’s offensive, but I guess I base it off the actual meaning of the word — nation.

    At the same time, there are plenty of words I won’t utter simply because their colloquial essence is offensive despite the etymology of the word.

    I’m toying with making this my tour de force in my master’s thesis — the etymology of Hebrew words and how they grow and evolve. This one, of course, would be an interesting case. The dictionary tells us that it took on its disparaging meaning in 1841. I’m curious to see how that happened!

  • A Jewish Music Insider June 16, 2008, 2:12 PM

    Ari your absolutely right: they are ruining it for the rest of us. Think about how much shorter the word ‘goy ” is in relation to “gentile” and how much more effort must now be used in order to be PC. I’m not sure I could muster the extra syllables.

  • Meg June 16, 2008, 2:14 PM

    I got called that a couple of weeks ago, walking across a street outside my university campus. I have to wear a headscarf in the summer because I sunburn really easily and I can’t put sunscreen on my scalp. So I was crossing the street at a busy intersection with my headscarf, long sleeves and long skirt. Someone shouts, “Move, you fuckin’ towelhead!” Apparently, I wasn’t crossing the intersection fast enough.

    Wearing a headscarf means every anti-Muslim, racist yokel in three cities can find you.

  • Honestlyfrum June 16, 2008, 2:22 PM

    In my office they goyim often use it when refering to themselves.

  • heshman June 16, 2008, 2:22 PM

    Just like we have to call stewardesses- flight attendants and mailmen postal workers- sheesh. Always trying to sound so sophisticated.

    Chavi- its just the N word, negra means black- but that is a very offensive word.

    By the way my fave term is “we Jewed em down” I just love how it rolls off your tongue.

  • Chavi June 16, 2008, 2:28 PM

    Hesh, there’s actually an interesting background to the word negro in Ladino. I can’t remember, but in the Castilian it meant something other than black. I can’t remember now, I’ll have to see if I have the document when I get home.

    It frustrates me how colloquialisms shape so much of how we view words. I suppose it’s the natural evolution of language, but many words are meant to disappear into oblivion.

  • Ben June 16, 2008, 2:34 PM

    There is a vast difference beteween

    Your’e Jewish-aren’t you? AND
    Your a Jew- aren’t you?

  • Meg June 16, 2008, 2:37 PM

    Yes, google actually has an interesting explanation that pops up at the top of the results page when you search “jew.”

    http://www.google.com/explanation.html

  • Meg June 16, 2008, 2:39 PM

    Ok, the moderation is being silly because I posted a link. SO here’s my comment again.

    Google the world “Jew” and click on the yellow highlighted box.

    They have an interesting discussion on the meaning of the term and why and how it is offensive.

  • Jessica June 16, 2008, 2:41 PM

    Any word can be flipped around to be negative. Goy started off just meaning a person from a different nation, but has since been used to describe anyone who certain Jews believe to be less than them. Take the word Jew. In certain contexts it is a dirty word; “I jewed him down”, etc. But I say about myself that I am a Jew and in that context the word is fine.
    I think that it is very rare to find someone using the word “goy” in a ‘nice’ context, but the word itself does not actually have a completely negative connotation. It’s the people who use the word that give it the negative connotation.

  • Mikeinmidwood June 16, 2008, 3:01 PM

    I agree the word Jew could and is used in a tone thats derogatory and so is the word Goy. I hate when someone says “why are you doing that what are you a goy!” and its a very common term used.

  • s(b.) June 16, 2008, 3:07 PM

    In the context of “Lo yisa goy el goy cherev, Lo yilm’du od milchama,” (Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
    neither shall they learn war any more.) I don’t have a problem with its use. The derogatory use is what, as Ari said, “ruin it for the rest of us.”

  • Have to say it June 16, 2008, 3:37 PM

    Why are all these shgatzim reading/commenting on Frum Satire?

  • heimish in bp June 16, 2008, 3:44 PM

    So here goes a long one, so strap yourself in and hold on for the ride.

    The topic came up because Chris_B mentioned that when discussing certain aspects of yiddishkiet that isn’t exactly enumerated in the Shulchan Uruch, the term “goyish” gets thrown around a lot, to justify the prohibition somehow. That’s when the debate started if the term is appropriate at all or if it should be part of our every day vocabulary.

    And I am for one that holds yes, it should be part of our every day vocabulary. Meaning that when I am asked, or feel the need to explain a certain action or non-action, as to why I am doing or not doing it, EVERY FRUM YID should have it as part of the essence of his yiddishkiet, that the action/inaction is GOYISH, meaning that is action or inaction is something that a goy would do. Yes a goy, not a yid. And we are very proud of that. We say a brachah every day “Asher Bucher bonu mekol ha’amim,” we thank god every day for choosing us from all the rest of the other nations. We have to know that we are special, we are better, we are AM HANIVCHAR. Its scary, but yes, a superior race. But its not a culturally, hereditarily, or geographically superior race. Anybody who embraces our faith, has the status of being superior.

    Contrary to most previous commenter’s’, I was brought up in a very ultra orthodox community. And although I don’t agree with many of their views, this is one, that was engrained in me since I can talk, of which I whole-heartily agree with. I am a YID and he/she is a GOY. It’s “us” and there is “them.” And we as a people have to make it very clear to ourselves, our kids, our friends, amongst ourselves that we should always know that and always make sure we never forget.

    Whenever there is an aspect in our lives that we feel can have an adverse effect on our stability in our faith in yidishkiet, we label it goyish to refrain from doing it. To withhold it from having an adverse effect on us. For instance: this past winter me and my buddies threw a Super Bowl Party (HUH???.) Ten guys, rented a suite, with two 60” plasma’s, brought along 5 cases of beer, ice, chips, salsa, wings, ribs, hero sandwiches, French fries, onion rings, nosh, etc., and had a great time. We washed for the food, made brachas, even davined maariv at half time, bentched. We had a blast, (no girls), all kosher fun, right? I watched my Giants fan buddies jump, scream, yell, throw empty bottles, crying from joy. We had a great time. Did we do anything wrong? No. Is it Yiddish? No! Absolutely not. Is it goyish? Yes. Did I go? Yes!! Will I go again? Of course I will. Can’t wait till next year. But I know, and so everyone who was there knew, that it was a goyishe thing from beginning to the end. Goyim to it, Yiddin don’t. Of course I follow sports, go to games, Rolling Stones concerts, forget about Halacha for a second, is it Yiddish? No. It’s Goyish, twist and turn it however you want, it is not something I would want on my tombstone. “DEVOTED JETS FAN.”

    Same is with pants wearing, rings, and so on. Wearing t-shirts, ripped jeans, non-Jewish music, going to college, sweet 16’s, showers. Although I did go to college, wear t-shirts, listen to non-Jewish music, and so on, I do know that it is not something a Torah Observant Jew should, and I said should, be doing. There is so much I learned, about the goyishe world, that I didn’t know about before I went to college. I doubt there is anyone who can say that going to a non-Jewish college didn’t have an effect on their yiras shomayim.

    I don’t think that out of the fear of offending a goy due to his/her overhearing our conversation, should we in any way curtail our use of it, when it’s needed. That being said, my parents were always careful not to say the word goyta, in front of the cleaning woman, but instead the word “froh” (Yiddish for lady), not to offend her. But between ourselves, they sure did. Yes we are more then them, we are better then them, our life has meaning, our lives aren’t empty. However that doesn’t give us the right to be disrespectful, to make a Chillul Hashem. NOT what the farkrumta (twisted) new-age meaning of Chilul Hashem. Davining mincha at work is a Kiddush Hashem, wearing tzitzes, a yarmulke in public, saying no when a women wants to shake your hand, refusing to go out for drinks is a Kiddush Hashem not a Chillul Hashem. To tease them to make fun of them, to berate them, and so on is not something that any god-fearing Jew would ever condone.

    Sorry it’s not about feelings and how we feel about the word. It’s about what the word goy means or should mean to us. A goy is a goy is a goy. You can act like a goy, dress like a goy, talk like a goy, walk like a goy, eat like a goy, drink like a goy, sing like a goy. A Yid is supposed to know; he should act better, nicer, politer and be on a higher madrega. The only way you can really achieve that level, is by making it very clear who “THEY” are, and who “WE” are. NO, there is no, or should not be any, room for any tolerance of “goyishness” in our lives. The more we allow to creep in, the more it will have an effect on us.

    • Betty Marjanovic April 10, 2018, 3:20 AM

      How old are you may I ask please?

  • heshman June 16, 2008, 3:45 PM

    Why not? I guess some of the writings on this site appeal to a much larger crowd then just yeshiva rebels and ex bais yaakov girls.

  • Kiki June 16, 2008, 3:59 PM

    heimish – so you because you are a jew are better than anyone who isnt? thats basically what you are saying. anything thats not “jewish” shouldnt be done – yet you boast about doing it. arent you picking and choosing how jewish you want to be – super bowl party – not jew-ish but i’ll do it,. wedding ring – not jew-ish but omg how could i even think to do that….who draws the line for you?

    how dare you say that you are better than everyone that isnt jewish? how dare you give the impression that being jewish means being a better person? those frum jews sitting in prison for fraud, child abuse etc – they are better than a mother teresa? according to what you said, yes.

    i am so angry right now – heimish, people like you are the reason we are so hated, people who think they are far superior just because of the community in which they have been born. one earns a reputation for holiness and goodness, one doesnt expect it because you got the snip at 8 days old.

    someone needs to knock you off your sanctimonious perch. i never thought i could be so ashamed of a fellow jew.

  • Meg June 16, 2008, 4:01 PM

    “our life has meaning, our lives aren’t empty”

    My gentile, goyish, shiksa, whatever life is anything but empty. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with different groups thinking their religion is the best (in fact, I would argue that it’s probably an essential part of religious culture). But empty? Devoid of anything fulfilling, of value? What about Noachides? Are their lives empty, even though they worship they same god as you do, using the rules set forth in your scripture?

    And what is, really, truly, authentically Jewish, anyway? I’m training as a historian, and I look at how ideas move through cultures. What is Jewish, not goyish? The spodik, a hat that, in its time, was worn by both Jews and gentiles? Is Hebrew Jewish, even though it’s a cousin of Arabic? Is challah Jewish, even though the style of braiding is common to many central European breads? Is speaking Yiddish Jewish, even thought it is a cousin of German and was born from interactions between Rhine-valley Jews and their gentile neighbors?

    The combination of all these things of mixed provenance creates Judaism, but classifying things as undeniably Jewish or goyish is difficult, at best. How many centuries removed from gentile society does something (like using a form of German as vernacular) have to be before it become Jewish?

  • heimish in bp June 16, 2008, 4:03 PM

    I didnt boast, I was bringing out a point, of what level i am, and at what level i should be at, to explain that although i am not at that level, I know where i should be.

  • Meg June 16, 2008, 4:15 PM

    Hemish, are you actually going to answer my questions? I am eagerly awaiting your ruling on the meaning and value of my life…

  • Hadassah June 16, 2008, 4:23 PM

    Meg – please know that this Jewess over here does not think the same way as Heimish does, not do a lot of us more liberal folks. Your life has tremendous value, because you are a person, you are a person who was given life by G-d. in my eyes that’s what counts. colour of skin, which god you pray to – if you pray, language, creed, size – all that is immaterial in my book. a father is supposed to love all his children equally, and i believe that G-d in His infinite wisdom loves all His creations equally. He had His reasons for making the Jews the chosen people, but that doesnt make the rest of the world second class citizens. How dare any of us say we are better than the next person?

  • Meg June 16, 2008, 4:28 PM

    I know Hemish’s opinion is a minority one; I was being rather facetious and kind of hoping he’d give me an opinion. :-p Thank you for your kind words.

    I do admit, having seriously considered an Orthodox conversion to Judaism, one of the most chilling concepts were me is the attitudes of people like Hemish about gentiles. Gerim have gentile families and friends, spent their lives before conversion immersed in the gentile world. In Hemish’s world, are gerim simply extreme anomalies who sprang forth from the spiritually devoid goyishe void?

  • s(b.) June 16, 2008, 4:48 PM

    oh, no, he di’n’t! lol
    I’ll echo what Hadassah said, up to “equally,” for now (and I’m not tied to his/him/he, necessarily; I think that’s personal to the individual). I have a class to attend tonight. I’ll begin my thoughts by saying that I don’t believe Jews are better than anyone else and I’m content to say something is simply not for me, if it isn’t, rather than writing it off with disdain as something for people who aren’t Jewish. I don’t need to rely on or use my spiritual paradigm as an excuse for not being involved in something. I really can’t afford to let myself get worked up over this; suffice it to say I disagree with many of heimish’s points and I’d be doing myself a disservice if I didn’t say anything to that effect. Have a beautiful evening, all.

  • The Chief June 16, 2008, 5:10 PM

    It is time frum Jews stripped antisemitism from the culture.

    On the BQE there was a homeless guy with a sign saying he is hungry. I told my husband to slow down so i can hand over a sandwich. He looked at me and he said, “for this goy?” I asked him “if you say this, why do you consider the Polish during WWII as antisemites? You are an antisemite!”

    My husband is a really nice guy, but has been poisoned by the culture. Wake up everyone. Stop crying like babies that everyone hates us. We hate everyone, and they are still tolerant and respectful in return.

  • Stacy June 16, 2008, 5:35 PM

    Maybe if we were a little more tolerant of each other we wouldnt have such a problem interacting with “the goyim”.

    I think in general there are very few Heimishs, the reason its so popularly used is because is because people got used to it and it’s an easy way of describing so many things, but i dont think half the people who use it would do so in a “goys” presence.

  • Mikeinmidwood June 16, 2008, 5:38 PM

    Its not like what heimish said. Rather its we should act differently than other nations NOT that we are better than them. We should be kinder to everyone instead of acting like how we feel. If a non jew also does this they are praise worthy. (not trying to say we are better but we should be different).

  • Meg June 16, 2008, 5:41 PM

    The idea of a people considering themselves set apart has never seemed particularly offensive to me; I think a lot of religions subscribe to in one form or another.

  • Meg June 16, 2008, 5:42 PM

    And, really, I know Hemish’s opinion is not normative.

  • Heimish in bp June 16, 2008, 5:48 PM

    Meg, and the others who aren’t Jewish: I am no rabbi, and really don’t know how to give a proper answer to your questions. However, and I am sure about it, that if you would print out my comment and take it to any traditional Orthodox Rabbi, not to a modern Orthodox one, and I am not talking about a Boro Park, Williamsburg, Monroe or Lakewood rabbi. I ma talking about a rabbi in the more Americanized communities, like Flatbush, Passaic, Far Rockaway, Chicago, Toronto, or Baltimore, and ask them if what I wrote is not true. You will see, that contrary to what you might think, you will see that they would all agree with this notion of separation, and the feeling that we as Jews are more or better then a goy, is the true and prevalent notion of yiddishkeit.

    Most who comment here, including Hesh, are not from that community, (although he lives in Monsey now) so they can be as PC and apologetic about our views as much as they want, but that is NOT what the orthodox Jew feel, rather the opposite.

    Don’t misconstrue what I said. I said we should tell “ourselves” not to the non-Jew, that “we” are better and “we” should act differently!!!!

    THIS IS NOT ABOUT ANTI SEMITISM!!!!!!
    All I said and try to say, is that an orthodox Jew has to know his boundaries as clear as day and night. And that can only be done by understanding where we stand with them.
    Offended? Sorry, that’s who we are.

    I know its public, and lately a lot of non-Jews are reading this, and maybe I will stop writing about such things for fear of it fostering anti-Semitism, but a big chunk of the readers here, who are Jewish, but where not brought with these notions, cannot comprehend it. Its to foreign for them. And its time for them to hear it.

  • utubefan June 16, 2008, 6:03 PM

    Hey, folks. Forgive me for not reading all of your posts. I got tired halfway through. I think that the degree with which you feel comfortable with the “Goy/Goyta/Shaygetz/Shvartza” terms is directly related to how much time you have spent in the outside world with people of different backgrounds. And I don’t mean a Torah V’Daas guy whose parents made him go to college and get a degree in accounting. I mean those of us who actually invest in talking with and getting to know our fellow students/employees/neighbors don’t feel comfortable referring to them by these terms. I’m pretty conservative and my heimish side comes out from time to time, but I never refer to my cleaning help as the “Goyta.” I refer to her by name even when she’s not around. I refer to my dear Catholic coworker, Mary, by her name and then if I need to remind my husband how dead on right she is about Jewish day school issues, I will remind him that she is “the Catholic lady I work with.” But, as a rule, I don’t use those words and I think that the guage one should use is whether the majority of those folks think it is derogatory and if they do, then don’t say it.
    Heimish, we sound like ridiculous idiots when we speak that way and we can maintain boundaries simply by marrying in and celebrating our holidays, regularly attending Shul, and eating Kosher. I don’t know about you, but I don’t have much time for much else.

  • Chris_B June 16, 2008, 6:07 PM

    I go to sleep for just a few hours and this is what happens? See you all when I get to work, it just aint fair, I have a huge report to do today…

  • Michele June 16, 2008, 6:14 PM

    Most, if not all, groups feel they are better than others. It’s not surprising. If you are religious and feel you know the truth you can’t help but feel superior. Even if you are not religious if you grow up in a tight community you’ll still believe it. Many also believe that they have to set an example for others to follow becuase of their higher status. None of this is new.

    The real problem is demeaning others. You can be separate and not demean others. You don’t have to put them down in order to achieve higher status. That’s what people are doing in the examples shown above.

    However, If you have the right to be separate, because you are better, then others who feel the same way should be able to do it as well. I know too many people who don’t want their children to marry out of the group so that the culture can continue through the generations in the way they think it should. But if a majority family did the same (white/christian based religion) it’s racism.

  • KissMeI'mShomer June 16, 2008, 6:45 PM

    Heimish, I think the Ortho rabbis you’re talking about would tell you that frum Jews SHOULD be on a higher madraga than “everyone else.”
    That’s not the same thing as saying that a Jew is automatically on a higher level by virtue of the fact that he or she is a Jew.
    Your level is something you have to work for and earn. You’re not born into it.

  • KissMeI'mShomer June 16, 2008, 6:46 PM

    …and Jews don’t have a monopoly on attaining a high level, either.
    Isn’t it the Rambam who says that anyone who says that Jews are wiser or better than non-Jews is wrong? Of course the Rambamwas a modern man for his time, but I still think he is a pretty reliable rabbi.

  • Meg June 16, 2008, 7:04 PM

    Hemish, it’s not the idea of chosenness and the attendant rules and responsibilities that come from it which bothers me. I think that is a normal and understandable part of being a member of any group or community.

    What I find offensive is the implication that gentiles have empty lives, lives without meaning. That is different than believing Jews are separate from, superior to, or different than gentiles. But to pretend that gentiles lack any connection to god is to me, illogical. Didn’t god give the Noachide covenant to all humanity because we all have the intrinsic ability to connect with the divine? If a Noachide serves god,and strives to fulfill their seven mitzvos, then they have served their purpose and god in the manner which they were created to do, no? If that is the case, then all gentiles have the ability to serve and understand god. A good noachide is serving at the level they were created for, and we are promised a place in the world to come in the same way that you are. A good Noachide is on the same level as a good Jew, and promised the same rewards in the world to come, aren’t they?

  • Ari June 16, 2008, 8:03 PM

    Oh boy.

    Heimish — you’re wrong about the readers of this site. Many of us are shomrei Torah u’mitzvos and can lein a blatt gemara and darshan a sugya with panache.

    Your infantile diatribe about Am Segula (“chosen nation”) and Asher Bochar Bonu Meekal Ha’amim (“that he choses us from all nations”) and kiddoshim tihiyu (“you should be holy”) is Exhibit A in the point that many of us are trying to make.

    This discussion is about the emotional freight and baggage of language, right?

    Your crude, juvenile interpretation of “chosen nation” is the result of a ghetto, us-against-them worldview that was, sadly, formed in the crucible of countless expulsions, inquisitions and massacres.

    Now, would you say that men are better than women, or that they have different, more public responsibilities? I think even heimeshe rabbonim would now say the latter.

    Would you say that kohanim or leveyim are superior to you, or that they have a different job to do? I hope to G-d you agree with the latter.

    Similarly, B’nei Noach have different responsibilities from us.

    We are the only major religion that says that you get to Gan Aiden (paradise) even if you’re not Jewish. Moshe married the daughter of a Ger and Dovid Hamelech and Moshiach comes from Geirus.

    You would have to be an am ha’aretz with a fourth-grade Jewish education to really, truly believe that you are somehow entitled to more recognition be’olam hazeh, or even olam ha’bah because you were responsible for performing more mitzvos.

    Well, guess what? With opportunity comes responsibility. And I’m afraid you’re not being very responsible by parroting the simplified tripe your misinformed, heimeshe (which, by the way, really means “lowered standards”) 1st grade rebbe told you, so you could understand the concept of responsibility.

    Grow up. See a little more of the world — and no, that does not mean the world of football.

  • Chris_B June 16, 2008, 8:34 PM

    Heimish in bp,

    I must applaud you for standing up for your beliefs even if it makes you look like a total redneck. I’m not going to engage you point by point or quote more tanakh references at you to show where I think you are in error. I could spend some time telling you about the orthodox-orthodox rabbis I’ve been around over the years who held contrary opinions, or if they agreed with you had enough sense of shame to keep it hidden, but I’m not convinced you took the time to understood what I wrote in the previous thread.

    The sad thing is, you made me laugh a bit. Your claim to higher status reminds me of an elderly KKK member I knew in Louisiana and a Black Nationalist I knew in NY. Both of those gentlemen would make pretty much the same claims as you made only changing the label for “the other”. Rednecks come in many flavors and you arent the first jewish redneck I’ve ever known.

    A Jewish Music Insider said:

    “I hope no one took my post seriously…”

    I was a little tempted to, but then I realized I had you confused with someone else who runs a different site related to jewish music. 😉

    Meg,

    Every group has got some people like that, even whatever group you are part of now I bet. Dont let them sweat you. The thing I’ve heard is that the ger’s soul was present at Har Sinai for the giving of Torah and therefore is somehow excused from their years on earth up to the point they got dipped in the mikveh.

    Texgator,

    In the context you refer to the word is genuinely hebrew, yes? I think the context discussed here is yinglish. To me at least it feels different.

    Dave,

    Theres a fad that comes and goes in the expat population in Tokyo to “take back” that word. I try to avoid it for the reasons I mentioned in the other thread.

  • A Jewish Music Insider June 16, 2008, 9:04 PM

    Wow these postings really got off on a tangent now we are discussing the issues of converts. Meg, out of curiosity what other faiths have you considered converting to other then Judaism? As some may have explained every religion on some level has a reason behind their belief as to what makes them special some express it differently than others. For some it is important to stay very separate (i.e. skverer Hasidim in both dress and location so as not to be influenced by all the evil influences of the world today (TV, Internet etc.) and although I don’t subscribe to that point of view I respect it.
    Different stroked for different folks is what I’m saying…

  • utubefan June 16, 2008, 9:07 PM

    Chris B is the man.

  • Anon. June 16, 2008, 9:47 PM

    The famous chossid and tzaddik R’ Zusha of Anipoli once told over that his biggest fear when he gets up to shamayim wouldnt be that they would ask him why he wasn’t Moshe. It’s that they would ask him why he wasn’t Zusha.

    If the point isn’t obvious enough – it’s that we all have our own potential and abilities. G-d expects only what we’re capable of. A Zusha that fulfilled his potential is greater than a Moshe that didn’t.

    Yidden were given 613 mitzvos. This is a huge responsibility. Bnei noach were given seven. Does this mean that the ben noach who fulfills all seven has any less of a chelek in olam haba than the yid that fulfills all 613? I doubt it. True, Moshe accomplishes more than Zushe, as does a Yid over a nachri. But that doesn’t give anyone an excuse to lack derech eretz about it. I am not implying that Heimish did. But certainly some do.

    It’s important to understand we are different, that we have different responsiblities, chief among them being an or lgoyim ie. being the world’s moral compass. One of the reasons that Yiddishkeit made as big a splash as it did initially was not just because we understood there is only one G-d, without any sorts of divisions or parts, ch’v. It’s that we understand and expect for the rest of the world to worship only this G-d as well.

  • Conservative SciFi June 16, 2008, 10:06 PM

    Wow! I’m going to have to help push Hesh’s comments on this to over 100.

    Meg,

    As many others have said, skim off the cream and leave the curds and whey to ferment by themselves.

    With regard to the word “goy”, I don’t use it much, but in studying Rambam, my group sees the Rambam use goy as “idolater”, (sometimes the word Nochri is used, which we understand to be a reference to Christians and sometimes to idolaters and sometimes ger is used, which is usually a proselyte).

    Ultimately, however, ANY WORDS WHICH HURT, should not be used, since everyone is made in the image of God and embarrassing (sp?) anyone, Jew or gentile, is a major aveirah(sin).

  • Hadassah June 16, 2008, 10:23 PM

    i never heard of a Jewish RedNeck – but if the shoe fits…..

  • Lion of Zion June 17, 2008, 12:58 AM

    a comment from “anon” was left to me on the other post, but the thread is continuing here and so i will respond here

    “Nothing in those words is inherently offensive at all . . .”

    of course not. that’s the way language works. nothing is inherently meant by any word and that why the same word can have very different meaning depending on locale, time frame and cultural context.

    so enough with those commenters above who say there is nothing wrong with goy because in tanach it just mean “nation.” we are not living 3500 years ago and speaking biblical hebrew.

    when i walk into my local grocery and ask the owner where to find something and he tells me to ask the goy or shvartze (and not the stockboy) for help, there is an inferrential association in his decision to use that word.

    in general, when considering linguistic assimilation of a minority population, it is important to note which words it retains from the native language and why. it is not a random coincidence that people prefer to perpetuate these offensive terms.

    “Even if you see behavior you don’t approve of from yidden, how can you talk like that about family?”

    i have no problem talking about it when a family member repeatedly does something that is just plain wrong and embarrasses the family. maybe you should have more respect for the family than those who give it a bad name.

  • Lion of Zion June 17, 2008, 1:04 AM

    “Even if you see behavior you don’t approve of from yidden, how can you talk like that about family?”

    i’ll just add:

    maybe if we spoke about it a little more instead of apologizing for it or pretending it doesn’t exist, our family members would stop behaving like that.

    also, it is precisely this circle the wagons mentality that permits the perpetuating of some very dangerous behaviors (and i’m not talking about triple parking on coney island ave.)

  • Lion of Zion June 17, 2008, 1:30 AM

    Heimish:

    “not to a modern Orthodox one”

    so out of curiosity, where in your hierarchy does the MO rav fit, below or above the goy?

    i know you did your time in college, but honestly, how many goyyim do you really know tthat you are making these generalizations about how vacuous their lives are? (of course as opposed to all the yidden who either just go through the motions or don’t even bother to do that)

    http://agmk.blogspot.com/2007/11/thanksgiving-day-in-jewish-practice.html#links

  • Lion of Zion June 17, 2008, 1:33 AM

    i thought i took out the last paragraph because i knew that the link in it would hold it up. but it appears i didn’t actually erase the link.

    the comment i removed for the link essentially said that a lot of people who like to contrast yidden and goyyim don’t know the first thing about the latter.

  • noch a loser June 17, 2008, 7:09 AM

    ooooh. so highly offensive. even african americans would rather say “wassup my n**** rather than “wassup my shaygitz”!

  • Meg June 17, 2008, 7:35 AM

    A Jewish Music Insider–I haven’t ever felt a desire to convert to any other religion. I was raised Anglican, but it didn’t really stick. My area of academic work requires that I be reasonably well informed about 14th-17th century Catholicism, Judaism, Protestantism and, to a lesser extent, Islam, but that differs from my own personal interest in Judaism.

  • Lion of Zion June 17, 2008, 8:02 AM

    MEG:

    “I was raised Anglican”

    i assume then that you’ve read abarham carmel’s autobiography?

  • Meg June 17, 2008, 8:41 AM

    Afraid not. When I say I was raised Anglican, I mean I basically refused to goback to church after the age of 12. So we never got much beyond the “color in pictures of Jesus and the disciples” stage.

    I’m going to look into it, though. It sounds interesting.

  • Yochanan June 18, 2008, 12:56 AM

    As others have pointed out, it depends on the context. For example, in Jewish children’s books, the “Goyim” are always snarling and about to organize pogroms and shit. This may have been true in Poland, but it’s not healthy for a kid in America to think like that about non-Jews.

    Yeah, it means “nation” in Hebrew. Maybe that’s where it becomes offensive. It’s a massive generalization. Maybe the Hebrew word we should’ve borrowed was Ish or Ishah.

    I’m gonna use “goy” nonoffensively: “My goy coworker ate a ham sandwhich.” Nothing wrong with that.

    In frum slang “Goyishe” often means vulgar and uncouth. “Goyishe Kop” comes to mind.

    Shvartze might just be Yiddish for Black, but certainly not among Anglophone Jews. I mean third or fourth generation Jews who don’t speak Yiddish, still use this word when “Black” or “African-American” would do fine. It’s never used positively like “George Washington Carver was a Shvartze agricultural scientist who discovered 300 uses for peanuts”. Or “Shvartzes have made extraordinary contributions to the development of American Popular Music”.

    And for all those who think Goyim have empty lives, I provided a link to an article I read this past Motzaei Shabbat. Put simply, a five year old girl’s lemonade stand raised $10,000 to pay for the medical expenses of her friend who has cancer. I don’t know if she or anyone involved in the fundraising is Jewish (although it would give me great pride), but it seems like if she isn’t, many Orthodox Jews would consider her scum. I know it sounds cliched or hallmarky, but I believe it’s what’s inside that counts and all that really matters is that you’re a good person.

    http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=694874&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=6/10/2008

  • Ruth2 June 18, 2008, 3:46 PM

    Just to add my 2 cents. I am a former Catholic and didn’t really think much about the word “goy” other than it meant gentile.

    Nothing more, nothing less. And once I learned “goyim” meant nations it didn’t really bother me because in church there was always references to “the nations.” A light unto the nations etc.

    Now, when I first met Orthodox Jews they would use “goyim” but I never found it offensive because 1. I respected them and know for certain they didn’t mean it in a derogatory sense otherwise they wouldn’t have been as kind to me as they are and 2. it was plural, not singular and directed at me.

    Don’t ask why, but it makes a difference. I am okay with “goyishe” because, at least for me, it has the connotation of former ways. My past.

    I don’t use the term goy to refer to non-Jews at all. I’ve taken my que from other Jews and use Gentile or non-Jews.

    It’s the safest bet when you’re not sure how someone will take it and if you care if you hurt their feelings or not.

    Curiously, once I started studying for conversion the word “Yid” came up.

    I’m extremely uncomfortable with that it. I’ve heard that used in a very derogatory fashion among gentiles. Yet it’s used commonly by Jewish.

    Sigh. Sigh. I didn’t know how to respond a year ago when a Jewish friend told me, “Don’t be such a Yid” when I complained about the expense of cable Internet access.

    Was it a compliment that a Jew called me a Yid, perhaps as a sign of endearment and sisterhood because I was called a Yid or can a Jew also be anti-semitic?

    If the remark came from a gentile I’d be spitting bullets but coming from a Jew?

    Talk about the sound of crickets.

  • frumgirl 1 June 18, 2008, 4:08 PM

    The word “goy” is exactly as rude as the word “Jew.” As in, in depends more on the tone than anything else.

    Since both words are usually used with a derogatory tone, they’ve taken on a negative connotations. Unless, of course, they are used to describe oneself or one’s member group.

    “Gentile” is a bit cumbersome, though, and sounds antiquated. Are there other equally non-offensive alternatives besides just “not Jewish?”

  • heshman June 18, 2008, 4:13 PM

    I still love the statement “we Jewed em down” its by far my favorite one to use in public and make people uncomfortable until they turn around and realize I am Jewish.

    To me its all about context- Mother- F–ing yid is much worse then yid as is burn the kike worse then cheap kikes- at least to me.

  • s(b.) June 18, 2008, 4:23 PM

    Hesh, just ’cause you’re Jewish doesn’t make your use of Jew as a derogatory verb any less inappropriate. Even if you’re only kidding, it represents poorly. (occasionally, stuff puts a bee in my bonnet. use of Jew as a verb is one of those occasions. I’m not asking you to care, just stating my opinion.)

    Ruth2, a Jew can totally be anti-Semitic. Since I don’t know the person who said that to you, I can only hope that his/her extremely poor (imo) choice of words was made in some sort of bizarre attempt at a term of endearment/sisterhood, while being negative. No crickets, just called as seen.

  • s(b.) June 18, 2008, 4:26 PM

    Not keeping any bees in my bonnet tonight; I’m going to see Stevie Wonder. Rain, no rain, it’s all good. Stevie throws down and I’m dancing.

  • heshman June 18, 2008, 4:29 PM

    As always I was screwing around- I used to do that when I was a wee little one. I would also start poking fun at Jews around my non-Jewish friends and we all get riled up until I busted out that I was Jewish and they would all feel like idiots.

  • s(b.) June 18, 2008, 5:13 PM

    lifts right pant leg
    notices sarcasm detector switch is in off position
    flips switch on
    have a great night!
    I can feel it all over, people!

  • Yochanan June 21, 2008, 11:18 PM

    “I still love the statement “we Jewed em down””

    Except, we (Jews) have to say “we us-ed em down” like Peter Griffin did once in Family Guy.

  • Yochanan June 21, 2008, 11:33 PM

    Here’s a link to that Family Guy scene I mentioned above. The clip is about 20 seconds.

    http://www.spike.com/video/2713452?cmpnid=800&lkdes=VID_2713452

  • Danielle June 24, 2008, 1:10 PM

    I know I’m way late on this boat, but I cannot resist commenting:

    1. I am converting to Orthodox Judaism and have been for almost two years. I have yet to pick up all of the nuances of the community, but this post enlightened me. I refer to myself as a Goy sometimes, merely to make it clear that I am an outsider and to explain why I may not know something. I typically get an awkward look or maybe an expression of discomfort. I always thought it was because I was an outsider, but maybe it’s because of my use of the word Goy, which I never knew was offensive. When I was growing up, in my Christian Church, we were told that there were Gentiles and Jews and that Gentiles were aka Goys. I never knew it was derogatory.
    2. I have heard non-Jews referred to derogatorily as Goys, but I have also heard them referred to derogatorily in many other ways. I.E., I was once at a home for Shabbos and someone informed a child that you could kick a non-Jew, but you couldn’t kick a dog, because the Torah had a special prohibition against animal abuse. Therefore, he explained, dogs were more valuable than non-Jews. The word Goy was never used, but the entire conversation was incredibly offensive.
    3. Regarding heimish, perhaps you won’t believe me because of my unique situation, but the big rabbis in my community would certainly find your post full of errors. Sure, Jewish people are supposed to remain a nation apart. I once heard it said that if the Jews do not like Shabbos candles, the Nations will make Havdalah. However, that does not make any group better. I have my Shampoo and my Conditioner in two separate bottles. It is not because I prefer one to the other. It is not because one is inherently better. It is because they serve different purposes which may not be fulfilled if they were mixed. However, if I were to try to condition my hair without shampooing it first, I would have a complete mess, and vice versa.
    3b. What isn’t Goyish? I’m pretty sure that everything in Hashem’s creation has been influenced by Jew and Gentile alike. Great Torah scholars were converts or children of converts. Avaraham was born of Gentiles. The Torah’s verse/chapter divisions were inspired by Gentiles. Much of the food I eat on Shabbos is just Gentile food subverted by Jewish people (i.e., kugel, schnitzel, Coke).

  • heshman June 24, 2008, 1:14 PM

    Wow Danielle thank you for adding to the discussion and I hope that people can make it over here to once again flow with the conversation.

  • heimish in bp June 24, 2008, 1:32 PM

    If we arent better, and each nation serves another point of existance, for another purpose, why are you converting? why arent you accepting your role in creation? is it personal reasons? you want to feel more connected to god? are you saying that jews are more connected to god? are we on a higher level? then how could that not be better?

    If you can give me a number of an email address of an orthodox rabbi who wouldnt think a yid is not better then a goy, i would greatly appreciate it.

  • heshman June 24, 2008, 1:44 PM

    Go heimishe- good comment- let the games start again. Bring out the KY this time.

  • heimish in bp June 24, 2008, 1:58 PM

    Hesh, I did not respond to any of the other comments, because most just got me mad and didnt want to respond in anger, but I have calmed down a bit since then. But seeing the same garbage is being regurgitated, I just had to speak up.

    (and as usual, you reap the benefits)

    btw, I reread my original and subsiquent comments many times, and still dont find anything I said offensive in any way. Sometimes the truth hurts.

  • s(b.) June 24, 2008, 2:39 PM

    What I really like about you, heimish, is your humility. If you insist on holding such an ethnocentrist view, please consider not making a chillul Hashem of yourself by spouting your delusions of grandeur in public. I would have messaged you privately, but I really would like to believe your facebook profile is a prank, and you’re not actually a married man looking to meet other women.

  • heshman June 24, 2008, 2:48 PM

    I never even saw his facebook profile. What is this Heimishe- you think that just because I have over 1300 friends I wouldn’t notice your friendship- ok thats enough I can stop now- I am cool for I am comment #100

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