Frum Satire | Jewish Comedy

65 responses so far ↓

• 1 s(b.) // Jun 12, 2008 at 10:57 am

  very tznius, hesh. Are the blue ones yours?

• 2 chanief // Jun 12, 2008 at 10:58 am

  LOL s(b.)

• 3 heshman // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:00 am

  Well I am all about airy underwear, shavuos was a good example of this- though I am sure most of the girls were going commando.

• 4 heimish in bp // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:01 am

  Dream on - Hesh

• 5 Lion of Zion // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:11 am

  “shavuos was a good example of this”

  ???

• 6 Chavi // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:12 am

  I love me a good pair o’bloomers!

• 7 Lion of Zion // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:13 am

  to continue from the wedding ring post . . . i assume that everyone here wears the 18th c. variety of undergarment. because of course all those examples from the 20th c. are “goyish”

• 8 heshman // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:17 am

  Indeed I will, leave me with my fantasies, though if I had my glasses on I am sure I would have noticed a lack of panty lines through the skirts.

• 9 Anonymous // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:20 am

  Interesting that the size of the undergarmets has gotten smaller, while the size of the average American has gotten larger.
  (Yucky visual. Poking out my own eyes now.)

• 10 heimish in bp // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:22 am

  You know, Hesh, alot of frummies dont wear their glasses on the street, so if something untznius passes them they wouldnt see it.

  Impressed you are at that level.

• 11 Lion of Zion // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:35 am

  heimish in bp:

  you are kidding, right? (i hope they at least put them on when they get behind the wheel)

• 12 heimish in bp // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:39 am

  I swear, there are many ppl in bp and willi, that i have seen do that. Deal with it, some ppl actually fear god, in their extereme way, but yeah, they do it.

• 13 Anonymous // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:40 am

  That could explain a lot about driving habits in some the the frummier neighborhoods.

• 14 s(b.) // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:41 am

  lion for president! lol (thanks, chanief) heimish, hesh TOTALLY knows I’m joking. and that’s really scary about people walking around without glasses. do they drive without them, too?

• 15 heimish in bp // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:43 am

  I doubt it, its usually the type that dont even drive.

• 16 heimish in bp // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:55 am

  Hesh, for the record, reffering to my email, not that i do, but i think more people would find this post offensive then the ones you mentioned.

• 17 heshman // Jun 12, 2008 at 12:07 pm

  Oh I don’t care if I offend- just trying not to bash- big difference.

  I drive and watch movies (gasp) with glasses on.

• 18 heimish in bp // Jun 12, 2008 at 12:13 pm

  whats the differnce? both cause sinas chinam?

• 19 hadassah // Jun 12, 2008 at 12:15 pm

  Lion - to further expand on that. my sons have been told that wearing jeans is “goyish” yet wasnt it Rabbi Levi Strauss who invented them? If a Jew invents something that gets adapted by the populace, does that make it treif / goyish?

  hesh - so when you moutain bike in your lycra shorts……what model from the picture do you favour?????

• 20 s(b.) // Jun 12, 2008 at 12:15 pm

  I find that the source of that image wasn’t credited offensive. (I’m not going to cry, but credit where it’s due is deserved.)
  ———-
  if you’re not wearing your glasses, a chance to do a mitzvah might pass you by, too (the general you).

• 21 heshman // Jun 12, 2008 at 12:27 pm

  heimishe explain how this picture causes sinas chinam

• 22 heimish in bp // Jun 12, 2008 at 12:31 pm

  When someone is offended by something you did, in essence you offended that person, no? so if you post something that is offensive to others you ae causinng hurt and bad feelings between you and them, in my book that is sinas chinam.

• 23 chanief // Jun 12, 2008 at 12:47 pm

  How did an underwear post become about sinas chinam?

  That aside, this thread of comments is pretty funny. Keep ‘em coming ‘cuz I am working (and mildly bored.)

• 24 Lion of Zion // Jun 12, 2008 at 12:48 pm

  i am having problems posting this

  HADASSAH:

  well for that matter, pretty much every article of clothing we wear except for tzitzit and maybe the kittel is “goyyish.” it would probably be best if we all pranced around naked.

  (levi strauss wasn’t a rabbi. i am also pretty sure he didn’t actually invent jeans, although he adapted them for more rugged use, or something like that)

  and please, before you refer to hesh in spandex, remember that for some of us it is lunch time

• 25 s(b.) // Jun 12, 2008 at 1:02 pm

  that’s a slippery slope, like electraifity (I made up that word; it means how when food with kosher ingredients is cooked in a kosher kitchen on shabbos, it’s traif, ’cause it was cooked on shabbos). And I learned about that right here, at the Hesher yeshiva. lol (seriously, though) If you want to be as black and white as that, you’re completely disregarding the concept and relevance of context.

  Black and white is the root of shades of gray. If Hesh posts a picture of swasktika graffiti along with a post making fun of the artists’ art skills, then while, yes, I find the graffiti personally offensive, Hesh didn’t paint it, he just posted it, what he wrote about it didn’t offend me, therefore the picture is not offensive.

  While there is a certain amount of editorial responsibility necessary in this world, there is a difference between one’s work and who one is. If you grow corn, you are not corn; you are a farmer. There is a difference. Verstehest?

• 26 heimish in bp // Jun 12, 2008 at 1:27 pm

  s(b.) you totally lost me on that one. Hesh is concerned about not offending people with his posts. Period. Slice it and dice it as you want, posting it offended some, and hurt some. that is all i said.

• 27 s(b.) // Jun 12, 2008 at 1:32 pm

  are you sure? you’ve put several words in his mouth today. here are some of his:
  —
  heshman // Jun 12, 2008 at 12:07 pm

  Oh I don’t care if I offend- just trying not to bash- big difference.
  —

  Off to see my cousin graduate from college, then go to work late tonight. Have a great day.

• 28 chanief // Jun 12, 2008 at 1:35 pm

  Heimish, don’t get your panties in a twist. It’s all in good fun. How could anyone find it offensive or be hurt by this post? Am I missing something? Is it because there are undergarments in the picture.

  Oh and, quoting from above from the almighty Heshman himself “Oh I don’t care if I offend”…
  There’s a huge difference between offending and bashing and OMG why am I bothering?

  Now, can we get back to the underwear jokes? ;o) Personally I’m all for bloomers and Anon, I may have to poke my eyes out too at the visual your post put in my head. Thanks.

• 29 chanief // Jun 12, 2008 at 1:37 pm

  Haha, I just realized I might offend the more sensitive among you with my typo. I wrote almighty instead of all mighty. Forgive me in advance… I in no way meant to imply that Mr. Frum Satire is THE almighty. Sorry.

• 30 Anonymous // Jun 12, 2008 at 2:03 pm

  Well, now at least we can be sure that the almighty has a sense of humor!

• 31 hadassah // Jun 12, 2008 at 2:23 pm

  anon and chanief - i really wish you hadnt used the word poke along with anon’s visuals……eeuuww

• 32 Anonymous // Jun 12, 2008 at 3:54 pm

  Um…. offensive or not, but doesn’t anyone think that posting pictures of women’s underwear is just a wee bit (and no, not by a large measure ) UNTZNIUS???

• 33 hadassah // Jun 12, 2008 at 3:57 pm

  oh puhleeze

• 34 Anonymous // Jun 12, 2008 at 4:51 pm

  Ditto the oh puhleeze…it’s not like there were women modeling the gotkes.

• 35 hadassah // Jun 12, 2008 at 5:45 pm

  altho i am sure, anon, that if hesh asked for volunteers to do the modelling he wouldnt lack for choice…….

• 36 Anonymous // Jun 12, 2008 at 5:50 pm

  Ok… then we happily disagree!

• 37 Chris_B // Jun 12, 2008 at 9:33 pm

  heimish in bp said:

  ” if you post something that is offensive to others you ae causinng (sic) hurt and bad feelings between you and them, in my book that is sinas chinam.”

  Just curious, does this sinas chinam concept only apply to intra-jewish communication or if a thing said offends a gentile, does it apply as well? I’m not offended by this post per se, but I’ve noticed an increase in the use of the word “goyishe” in the comments lately (actually all across the frumosphere).

  By context its pretty clear to me its not just being used to mean “something prevalent in non-jewish cultural contexts” but more like a swear word, an adjective to indicate something filthy or even evil. In my eyes, its pretty much equivalent in usage to the “N word”.

  I realize that the usage isnt always like that, but “one bad apple” and all that makes even the innocent usage seem harsh. If sinas chinam only applies between jews within the walls of the shtetl, folks might want to remember that the Web is not a walled ghetto, the digital word spreads fast and is impossible to erase.

  The result to me is whether or not sinas chinam applies to gentiles or not, or until they come up with a separate Internet only usable by people who pass the standards of “Who is a Jew” set by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel, such that no one may see the word and be offended, maybe think about it before using it next time?

  Lastly, the use of that word in that way at least seems contrary to Deuteronomy 10:19.

  Anyway, if anyone thinks I’m being oversensitive here or if I’m just wrong in my thinking, feel free to educate me. I’m always up for some learning!

• 38 chanief // Jun 12, 2008 at 11:26 pm

  Chris_B I both agree and disagree with you.

  I think the intent behind the word is different coming from different people. I don’t use it in every day language or writing, but I have used it in mockery of those who do use it as a derogatory term (if that makes any sense.) I apologize if my use of the word was offensive to you. (I think I used it in a comment on the wedding ring discussion) My intention was definitely not to put down anyone who is not jewish, to me people are people regardless of their religion, but I did use it and I’m sorry if it hurt you in any way.

  Yes there are those who use the word with negative connotation, but they tend to be more narrow minded and afraid of the world in general.

  I think you are 100% right that people should be more sensitive about such words, especially because it is so easy for the term to come across in a negative manner . The intent behind written words is so much harder to figure out than in a face to face conversation, and again, if MY use of the word was offensive to you, I apologize sincerely.

• 39 Anonymous // Jun 13, 2008 at 1:32 am

  i guess i’m stuck in the 80’s

• 40 Anonymous // Jun 13, 2008 at 1:33 am

  Goyish doesn’t seem any more offensive than shiksa or shaigetz. At least to me those things are pretty harmless.

  Although having been around the behaimos that many jews in brooklyn have to call neighbors, the kal shebkalim, it is easy to see how such an upbringing could lead one to racist sentiments vis-a-vis the goyim.

• 41 M // Jun 13, 2008 at 1:46 am

  Chris B- I see where you’re coming from- that was a lucid and balanced thought.
  From my own experience: a lot of people say “goyim” etc just as a matter of habit, instead of non-Jews. Just another one of the Hebrew words in our language.
  As for the ones that say it in a derogatory manner: mostly when they say that, they would like to point out lifestyles which they hold in contempt. But as one of my wise teachers said: we condemn the behavior. We don’t judge the person. The fact that people often fail to separate the two is a failure on our part…

• 42 Chris_B // Jun 13, 2008 at 3:27 am

  M pointed out:

  “As for the ones that say it in a derogatory manner: mostly when they say that, they would like to point out lifestyles which they hold in contempt.”

  Which is exactly what I’m talking about. The adjective form comes from the noun so they are inseparable. Using the adjective form to express contempt by extention shows contempt to the source of the word.

  Please note I’m not personally offended, but I can see how some gentiles who adjust the chip on their shoulder *just right* every morning before they leave the house will not differentiate the person from the action (same as the person who used the word orginally) and it leads to a spiral of contempt.

  Mr Chip Gentile sees the word used as an epithet and thinks “those Jews think they are better than us and this proves it”. Mr Yankel Frum sees Chip’s bad attitude, condemns it as “goyishe” and now the circle is complete.

  chanief:

  Dont worry yourself for half a minute, I’m thick skinned like a rhino so I’m not offended by words. I am interested in words and how they get used though.

  Did you see Clerks 2? If so, do you remember Randal’s talking about his grandmother’s use of the phrase “sheeny curse”? For those who havent seen that movie, that part was a great segment about the casual use of derogatory and racist words. Very offensive, but funny and made its point after all.

  heshman:

  Dont mean to highjack the thread, and to go back on topic, I’ve seen this graphic before but it always gives me a chuckle!

• 43 heshman // Jun 13, 2008 at 9:26 am

  Hey Chris you can hijack whatever you want thats the beauty of blogs the discussion goes through the gamut of things.

  I think the word Goy is offensive- and you will notice it is rarely used unless in context- such as goyishe (which is hard to replicate in context when making fun of certain aspects of Judaism)

• 44 heshman // Jun 13, 2008 at 9:27 am

  Hey Chris how about the Clerks 2 porch monkey scene- its on my faves on you tube?

  Also I have been trying to figure out what the heck is offensive about Sheeny?

• 45 Chris_B // Jun 13, 2008 at 9:58 am

  heshman,

  I dont know if the youtube clip includes the whole scene or not. The premise of the routine is that Randall is initially unaware of how the “soft” racist words can cause offense just like the “hard” ones. His grandmother who used all these words warned Randall “to always treat the jewish kids well or they’d put the sheeny curse on me”. Obviously Randall’s grandmother believed that jews had some kind of evil eye power to curse people.

  As he talks more to Dante, Randall figures out that his grandmother was indeed a racist, but again the whole skit really is about the power of label words. Maybe the absurdist humor doesnt come across well in my writing, but I watched the scene again to write this and just couldnt help laughing the whole time.

  Favorite quote “baby you cant taste racism”

• 46 heimish in bp // Jun 13, 2008 at 10:08 am

  I could write a whole long comment about the word goyish, and how the ultra-orthodox are beeing taught not to be tolerant about anything “goyish” coming into your household, but i think i did my share of long comments for the week.

  btw, Chris_B are you jewish? nonjewish? frum? flexidox?

  Just curious.

• 47 heshman // Jun 13, 2008 at 10:13 am

  Chris is by far the the most interesting commenter, he hales from Asia and is in fact non-Jewish, and always puts in something interesting to the discussion.

• 48 Chris_B // Jun 13, 2008 at 10:14 am

  heimish in bp,

  does it matter? I mentioned before so I’ll say it again. I’m not jewish. Not at this time.

• 49 heimish in bp // Jun 13, 2008 at 12:35 pm

  it matters only, because as some other commenter said, these converstions are not face to face, so its kinda hard to really comprehend what one’s comment really means. Now dont blast me for it, but I take everyones comment within the context of the image I conjugated in my judgemental mind, of that person. For instance, I wouldn’t even try to explain to a non-jew that the word goyish, in the ultra orthodox community, is INTENTIONALLY “more like a swear word, an adjective to indicate something filthy or even evil”, because, honestly, with my limited inteligence, I dont think the non-jew/non-frum, can ever come to understand how its justified, to have such views. So after reading your comment I just try to put it into prospective of your mind not to judge YOU (as funny as that sounds).

• 50 Lion of Zion // Jun 13, 2008 at 1:26 pm

  ANON:

  “Goyish doesn’t seem any more offensive than shiksa or shaigetz. At least to me those things are pretty harmless.”

  i hate to break it you, but these are all offensive words. they’re harmless to you only because they don’t describe who you are.

  “Although having been around the behaimos that many jews in brooklyn have to call neighbors, the kal shebkalim, it is easy to see how such an upbringing could lead one to racist sentiments vis-a-vis the goyim.”

  that’s funny, because having lived in brooklyn almost my entire life i see many jews who are beheimos. as far as i am concerned, it is easy to see how such an upbringing could lead one to anti-semitic sentiments

• 51 M // Jun 13, 2008 at 1:28 pm

  Heimish- I see what you’re saying. Coming from such a place, now that I’m a bit more out there, I realize that people that don’t come from the very yeshivish/frum/Chassidish background find it VERY hard to understand them and their thoughts and motivators. I know for myself- even though I come from such a background to some extent, *I* am finding it hard to understand! And I’m from there! But then, they find it hard to understand how the more “modern” can do all that they do.

  Chris- not yet? Wow.

• 52 s(b.) // Jun 13, 2008 at 5:13 pm

  I agree with Lion of Zion. I wrote something about boycotting those words a while ago. They do no good, in this world. Neither does the word gentile, really. It’s English, but it’s the same idea. Blanket separatism. I lack patience for it. But that’s me. I forgot who wrote it in comments here, at some point, but whoever wrote that if people said Jew(ish) the way people use the assorted G words, folks would be hollering anti-Semitism left and right.

• 53 Chris_B // Jun 14, 2008 at 1:20 am

  heimish in bp:

  Why would I blast you? Context is everything. Some people feel entirely justified using any separation word to describe people who are not the same as them. Everyone who does thinks their reason is good enough. Sometimes the context is difference of belief, sometimes its “dont you know what *those* people did to *us*” or any of a million other reasons.

  I have a feeling that by using hedge words as you did that you feel its completely OK to use separation labels but you are polite enough not to say so directly since someone who might take offense is present. Maybe I’m mistaken in my opinion.

  Its easy for me to assume that because of my experience living in Japan. The word “gaijin” here is the contraction of “gai koku jin” (lit “outside country person”) and its often used in the same vulgar context as we are discussing. Since most japanese assume that foreigners can not understand their language, they will use this and other pejoratives in the presence of a non japanese, but will often stop if they know that the person understands what is being said.

  Even very educated and highly cultured people use the term derisively and sometimes dont even care if the listener understands. More than once I’ve been present when someone asks my wife why on earth she would have married a gaijin, after all *they* just cant understand *our* ways. Its not specifically that she married an American who is of the same people who killed hundreds of thousands of japanese people with atomic bombs some 60 years ago, or forced Japan to open the country to outsiders and into an unfair trade agreements using gunboat diplomacy in the mid 1800s, or any other item from a long list of grievances, it is the base assumption that an outsider could never understand, much less participate in the japanese culture. Do you see why I use this parallel?

  Language fails us whether we are face to face or connected by trans-pacific fiber optic networks. If instead of all of us communicating by comments on a website, we were all sitting in a nice cafe somewhere, I’d say the same things and you’d see that I said them without a trace of malice, that I offer my comments out of concern rather than anger.

  s(b.),

  Your last sentence sums up my point entirely. I’m not sure yet about gentile, probably because I’ve never heard it used derogatorily or in anger. As long as the hunan condition exists, as long as we all live by different standards, we need some words to refer to “us” and “them”. It isnt easy arriving at mutually agreeable words between groups.

  M,

  I live on the opposite side of the Earth as most commenters here, day and night are opposite of time in the eastern part of the US. I was deep asleep when heimish added his comment. As I write this, most of you are asleep

  heshman,

  I looked up “sheeny” in “The Joys of Yiddish” (1968 edition) and Leo Rosten makes it quite clear that its an offensive word. I’m hardly certain thats authoritative, but never having lived in a Yiddish speaking community, nor having a native speaker close by thats all I have to go on. I assume then that Kevin Smith chose the word to be at the same level as “porch monkey”

  See you all again after Shabbat.

• 54 Anonymous // Jun 14, 2008 at 11:35 pm

  Ari,

  Nothing in those words is inherently offensive at all. It’s all in how you use them. They’re harmless to me because I don’t think there’s something wrong with belonging to one of these categories.

  Even if you see behavior you don’t approve of from yidden, how can you talk like that about family?

• 55 heimish in bp // Jun 15, 2008 at 3:08 pm

  s(b.) - “Blanket Separatism” is why we havent assimilated, and still observing the same 613 mitzvoth given ot us on Har Sinai, so not only does it have room in our vocabulary, but it is needed and the only way we can contnue our connection to our forefathers if we made it very clear to ourselves and to the world, that there is US and there THEM. Of course in their presence we should give them the utmost respect, howerver, amongst ourselves everything about the goyishe world that can have an influence on us should be dealt with great caution. (Trying to be a little poilitical correct. I know Cris_ b might be reading this) And if you can remeberfrom school, in what merit we left Egypt is for not changing our Names, Language, and Dress. We stayed seperate.

  And the more you try to be accepting of “them” into your world, the more “they” have an influence on you.

• 56 Anonymous // Jun 15, 2008 at 3:20 pm

  I have to say that I agree with Heimish in BP.

• 57 Chris_B // Jun 15, 2008 at 10:19 pm

  heimish in bp,

  You werent addressing me directly, I’m not sure if you read or understood my previous comment or if you are choosing not to respond to it, but I do see you confirmed my suspicion. Please save your false political correctness if it is only offered on my part.

  I should apologize for upsetting you. Your heart is obviously in the right place but it seems this discussion has rattled your mind. Your comments to s(b.) simply do not make sense even if the intent is pure. If indeed you believe in blanket separatism, why is this discussion taking place on here or even at all? Please note also that “us” vs” them” works both ways; a person who keeps mitzvot with joy in their heart is a beacon for anyone to see.

  As for keeping mitzvot, I once read an interesting question: “Why was the Torah given in the wilderness at Har Sinai?” I suspect most readers here will know the answer to that one, if not Google is your friend. Obviously I’m no scholar on these matters, but as always if there are weaknesses in my understanding, I’m more than open to being corrected.

• 58 s(b.) // Jun 16, 2008 at 12:33 am

  heimish in bp // Jun 15, 2008 at 3:08 pm
  “And the more you try to be accepting of “them” into your world, the more “they” have an influence on you.”

  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. That’s why I’ve become more observant, not less observant, over the years. I have gone from not believing in any sort of god, as a teenager, to the path I’m on today, and I certainly was as unobservant as possible, back then.

  Please go read Rav Kook’s Song of the Soul. If you’re not familiar with it, it’s the first post on my blog.

  There can be separation without disdain or disrespect. Thank you for being/commenting here, Chris_B. I see no reason for you to apologize to heimish; he is an adult responsible for his own reactions. It was probably your words I was paraphrasing.

  Heimish, I’m a big fan of pre-mitzrayim (Egypt) Judaism. As far as staying separate back then goes, of course we were separate, we were the slave class! lol You are hilarious. Oh, the exceptions — Yosef (Joseph) and Moshe (Moses) and later, Ahron (Aaron). The influence of having their having interacted with “them” (lol) seemed to turn out okay for them, in the end.

• 59 s(b.) // Jun 16, 2008 at 1:07 am

  what did I put in my comment of 12:33 that sent it to moderation? slash slash, from quoting heimish? I don’t know. That’s probably it. Feel free to delete this comment.

• 60 heshman // Jun 16, 2008 at 8:29 am

  If you put any sort of html style stuff it moderates, I have no idea how the system works- all I know is that its dumb- but it blocks about 1000 spam comments per day.

  I think I will put this topic into its own post- global warming hardly seems like a place to debate this topic.

• 61 heimish in bp // Jun 16, 2008 at 9:49 am

  Hold on everyone. I was not offended by anyone, I wasnt riled up at all, and if I offended anyone, I do ask for forgiveness. English was not my first language and my expressions are somethimes very far from my true intentions. Not an excuse just an explanation.

  Chri_B, no, I wasnt ignoring you. You made a comment about using the word goyish in our everyday vocabulary. I didnt want to write a whole long comment about, before i understood to whom I am trying to clarify the use of such language, and in what context he will apply.

  And BTW, racially divisive slurs for cultural differences, and past vadeta’s are very different than, when an integral part of the religion is separatism.

  I was commenting on s(b.)’s comment, for she is jewish, and on the way back to our faith, and I was just trying to point out some falacies (that I think are falaicies) in her reasoning.

  s(b.) are you trying to say that the reason you came back to yiddishkeit was because of your envolvement with the non-jewish world?? If you yes, it would facinate me if you can tell me how and why.

  Hesh, yesterday after I wrote the comment to s(b.), and some anonymous poster agreed with my rederick, I thought of writing up a whole long response to it, and ask you to post it as an original post. Of course put up a million disclaimers that its not yours, just some dude who comments on your blog, and its all his opinion. What do you say? Maybe ask s(b.) to write one too, and put it up side by side (of course hers will be so much more elequant, due to my lack of writing skills).

• 62 heshman // Jun 16, 2008 at 10:13 am

  Why don’t I wrote a short post and you all can comment like nuts- and get everyone in the mix. It will be similar to the “kike” post.

• 63 Chris_B // Jun 16, 2008 at 10:28 am

  heimish in bp,

  *I* am not offended but can you ask for forgiveness without understanding the wrong? And dont worry about your english! I deal with far worse on a daily basis, Ive learned to give people the benefit of the doubt.

  I’d like to clarify something about the Japan story though. This nation was literally closed off from the outside world for hundreds of years and still has a very deep sense of separation from the world outside its shores. Separatism is part of the cultural foundation. Just like some jews will sit shiva for a child who marries outside the faith, very traditional japanese would do the same kind of thing for a child who marries a foreigner. I’m very fortunate that my extended family here sees me as a human first and as a foreigner second.

  By the way if you are at all interested in two examples of the crossing of jewish and japanese history, look up the name Setsuzo Kotsuji or the name Chiune Sugihara.

  As for who you are dealing with in what context, to me it should be enough that you are dealing with a human who bears you no anger, more than that, think of me as an airplane circling the Ben Gurion International Airport checking to see if there is a landing space for me. No more will I say at this time

• 64 heimish in bp // Jun 16, 2008 at 10:56 am

  Chris_B, Yes, if i find out that my actions or words, unbeknown to me and without it being my intention to do so, has caused pain or ill will to someone, I would like to ask forgiveness and apologize for my actions.

  And although culture is a very strong part of orthodoxy and judaism in general, it isnt the main part. the observance of the 613 mitzvoth, and the separatism aspect, we are discussing hers, has less to do with the cultural part, and more to do with the observance part.

  As to the landing part, I am at a total loss on how to relate/respond to that. I am sure you know that we are supposed to be very un-accomadating to those who want to join our faith, and not point out that all our “strange” ways are the “right” ways. Maybe I should act like an a—ole towards you so you wouldn’t want to be part of a group that include nudniks like me, kidding. Truth, I am no rabbi, without any degree of training how to deal with these situations. That last part just threw me into another whole level of pressure whenever i write anything on this site, pretty scary.

• 65 s(b.) // Jun 16, 2008 at 12:08 pm

  Heimish, 9:49 a.m.: … on the way back to our faith …
  Sb: I’m not on the way back; Judaism is the Hotel California of world religions, “You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.” (I’m being sort of facetious. In my case, as in Einstein’s, that’s true [I agree with Einstein, in my case]. Individual mileage may vary. I am more observant, these days; that happens to be my path. Being Jewish is something that’s always me.
  Heimish, 9:49 a.m.:: s(b.) are you trying to say that the reason you came back to yiddishkeit was because of your envolvement with the non-jewish world?? If you yes, it would facinate me if you can tell me how and why.
  Sb: OH, YES!! SECULAR DEBILS DONE SENT ME PACKIN’ BACK TO MOSES!! (I’m kidding.) Well, I didn’t know that mussar was a word; I’d been studying that sort of thing (character-building, integrity-promoting learning) in secular sources, and I always like to check out Judaic sources when I find neat concepts (there are smart people from all walks of life). And I stumbed upon the word mussar. That helped me on my path.
  Sb: My point was and is that one (me, anyway) can interact with people who are not Jewish and the secular world without having it detract from one’s Jewish identity. In my case, studying secular mussar led me to Jewish mussar, so, yeah, part of my path toward being more observant was definitely reading secular authors. I don’t find that particularly fascinating; it is what it is.

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