You may notice that I have been posting more and more semi-serious posts, and that is because I feel like it. I also used to post multiple times per day and for some reason I am in that mode once again. I have also been posting quite a bit on my outdoors blog as well.
I was talking to someone the other night on G-Talk and he asked if I could do some sort of review of this progressive orthodox shul in Baltimore. I asked what was so progressive about it, expecting an answer like they have Ben and Jerrys at their Kiddush clubs and coed naked simchat torah dancing. But instead he said that they let the women dance with torahs and give drashas (what every time a bat mitzvahd girl gets up in shul to speak its progressive?) as well. Wow was I shocked, not at the shocking nature of it, but that if that was progressive- my neighborhood shuls growing up must have been mighty progressive.
In fact after 9-11 when they stopped closing down west end avenue on the upper west side for simchat torah celebrations is when I first learned that a majority of communities do not let women dance with the torahs, or even dance at all. I never knew this, because the upper west was the place to be and as far as I knew everyone gave the women torahs to dance to with. For those who have heard of it I attended the West Side Institutional synagogue which was not that left wing- in fact the Kiddush clubs were centered around a bunch of boozed up liberal bashing older men.
I have heard since that women dancing with the torah on simchat torah or at all is assur because of Nida, tznius and a bunch of other generic “we just don’t do that” rhetoric of which is heard about anything which no one wants to cite any sources for. I wasn’t too interested in this topic because it just seems like one of those things that folks in the modern orthodox community disagree with the more Charedi factions of Judaism and this is fine because Judaism is not one size fits all in any sense.
But then I was sitting on a folding chair in the middle of some pot luck meal in Washington Heights over shavuos and someone announced that there would be a megillah reading for all those that missed Ruth that morning. I missed it and was happy to be able to fulfill the mitzvah. So this weird looking fellow with a straw hat like some old foggy out of a barbershop quartet gets up to make the brachos and all the sudden this girl clutching a megillah scroll is off reading Ruth.
Now I have been hearing about women’s megilla readings for years. In Rochester there was on and in many other places they have them. Ruth is about women’s empowerment after all and what a great way to bond and do whatever it is that women do- gossip, eat, share scrapbooks- and read the megilla. But I had never been in the situation of the megilla being read by a women. I couldn’t help but think if I would fulfill the mitzvah or not? I dared not ask, because the last thing you want to do around a bunch of feminists is ask if something’s kosher, because undoubtedly some Doctorate student from JTS will give you her thesis on how men control everything- and they do- not doubting that at all, although a simple sex strike can change that ladies.
So I figured while I searched through the net for sources which would say I fulfilled the mitzvah of megillah I decided to find out a few things. It wasn’t the first time, but over shavuos I also ate a meal where a girl made Kiddush, and I recently ate at a pizza store with 3 girls who made a mezumin- which I already knew was totally fine.
Like most folks I don’t really have an informed opinion on feminism (based on my yeshivas philosophy- its all assur- or we are too lazy to actually find out if its kosher). Is it good or bad for Judaism? I am sure you can argue both ways, many of the feminists I know are very orthodox ladies or girls who want to feel more needed or more involved. I am interested to hear both sides. I can say its bad because when you start messing with tradition, other things get messed with. It can also lead to a general relaxing of halacha, for instance I read in one essay on Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance’s website that you can pretty much peace together multiple sources to find loopholes for women laining and being called to the torah. Obviously if the women find a deeper connection to Judaism and want to practice things not traditionally practiced it could be good as well. Better to have a bunch of pious albeit orthodox feminists then a bunch of intermarried know nothings. Like I said I am only beginning to wonder around the sources.
Interesting halachic sources for the issues above, and I am shocked at how everything above is halachically permissible.
Can women dance with the torah on simchat torah?
Can a women be motzi a man in kiddush?
Can a women kiss or hold the torah?
{ 28 comments… read them below or add one }
which shul in baltimore (if you don’t mind saying)
If you only became Lubavitch, you wouldn’t have to worry about whether you were yotzeh hearing Megillas Rus, because we don’t do it at all.
As for women’s lib, what of it? Live and let live, that’s my motto. Personally, I fail to understand why anyone would want to take on more Mitzvos than they have to, but that’s their problem, not mine.
Netivot Shalom
i have been motzi a man with my kiddush several times, in my home. just because mainstream judaism doesnt practise it doesnt mean its not acceptable. when i have guests in my home, it is my place to make kiddush for the family. i always offered for the man to make kiddush for us or just for his wife if he was uncomfortable, but there is no halachic necessity.
a married man is yotzer when his wife lights the shabbat candles – why shouldnt you have been yotzer with the megillah reading?
interesting subject Hesh – and i am liking your multiple postings.
Leo wants to know which shul in Baltimore so that he can get in on the naked simhcat torah dancing.
CC my comment on why women should/shouldnt learn gemarah
Hesh, good job coming up with contraversial subjects.
Next post: was/is the Rebbe really moshiach?
he made a bracha on megilas rus?????
Heimish, do you really want hesh to get over a thousand comments on his next post? Wouldn’t that be cruel? Besides, it’s a non-issue, V”DL
Heimishe now that is a good way to create loads of sinas chinam and I am not interested in another round of Luabvitch Rebbe zt”l bashing. It seems that people forget how amazing he was just so they could bust out the moshiach thing- let the kooks be kooks.
LOL!!!
“what every time a bat mitzvahd girl gets up in shul to speak its progressive”
actually the whole idea of celebrating bat mitzvah itself is a reform innovation. but don’t tell anyone, as it would mean one less excuse to make a party.
“I couldn’t help but think if I would fulfill the mitzvah or not?”
don’t worry, i’m pretty sure there is no mitzvah to hear ruth to begin with. and actually, using a klaf is just a hiddur, so even if ruth is a mitzvah you are yotze reading it yourself from a book
“I recently ate at a pizza store with 3 girls who made a mezumin- which I already knew was totally fine. ”
an obligation according the gra
“but over shavuos I also ate a meal where a girl made Kiddush”
this is something i was going to post about. i never understand why at a kiddish you see these girls and single/widowed women running all over the place looking for someone to make kiddush for them. even if there is a problem for a man to be yotze from a woman, she can certaily do it for herself
ME
“he made a bracha on megilas rus?????”
if you read it from a klaf
“I can say its bad because when you start messing with tradition”
can you please define tradition as you understand it. from my vantage point there is has been a heck of a lot flux over time. for example, someone mentioned chabad above. nothing against chabad, but chasidim in general messed around with a lot of our “traditions.”
also, every new chumra, hiddur, etc. can be considered an affront to tradition.
This was an interesting post : I read the sources and found them fascinating. Thanks for the info. I liked this line: Judaism is not one size fits all in any sense.
The Gra holds that three women mezuman is a chiyuv? That should be more popularized.
Hesh, Ruth is a traditional reading, but is in no way an obligation. The only obligatory Meggilah reading is on Purim.
The real issue at hand is whether it’s Tznius for a woman to chant in front of men. Obviously there is a tremendous disparity between the Ultras and the Progressives about it.
—-
A few years ago I remember some girl planning to read from the Torah for her Bas Mitzva at a Orthodox women-only Minyan. Presumably her feminist mom put her up to it because the community that they’re a part of is relatively conservative. All of her classmates’ parents forbade their daughters from attending the religious part of the Bas Mitzva.
I just don’t get why people would put their kids in such a position where they get shunned and isolated by their friends. Yeah, it’s liberating and makes a good show, but why make your kids suffer?
How do women make a mezuman? Do they change it to “Isha Nevarach”?
The actual Halacha is that you could be yotze with a woman saying megilah, you just have to say word for word after. Is it then being yotze along with her I dont know.
Emphasis on the “along with her”
The Orthodox response to feminism has always been reactionary. It’s basic hebrew school history; prior to the enlightenment psak was more removed from hashkafa and therefore more flexible. Post-enlightenment we had to avoid both the gentiles and the reformim. Apprently beis yaakov was a radical movement to re-engage jewish young women with tradition so that they would be satisfied being married to bochrim given that the girls had begun to only attend gymnasiums and had no understanding of judaism outside of the kitchen. Similarly the lubuvicher rebbe’s support for women’s learning of gemara is a clear attempt to ensure women can remain frum on an intellectually stimulating level. But does this make feminism a bedieved phenomenon? Maybe, but that doesn’t make it assur. jewish practice has been a fluid concept throughout history and to stop changing, be it the development of chassidut or kabbalism or even egalitarianism is to highly censor the torah and its shivim panim. Appreciatively, from down under, shabbat shalom
HaRavette, interesting history analysis.
B”H
“You may notice that I have been posting more and more semi-serious posts….”
Why?
Are you trying to find justification from your audience’s “feeling” that you are correct in your modernist views?
Do you go around searching for every Qulah in the book?
Why not stick with comedy?
Nah I just go through stages- this is the “write whatever the hell I feel like not nec comedy stage” if you don’t like it you can leave.
Well actually these posts pertain to things going on in my life and they are written with a comic slant- it just flies over peoples heads because its too witty for them.
Funny because all of these so called “modernist” views are in the Shulchan Aruch- and you can search the sources for that.
I wasn’t in a comedy mood- I want to diversify.
I was not referring to this post in particular.
Don’t worry I just wrote something really funny for next week- well I think its funny.
Ben – Yehudah, be nice, please
LOL.
Children!
“Why not stick with comedy?”
well even when hesh writes a serious post, you can always count on some of the nonsensical comments for a good laugh.
Hesh You know us women sooo well! All we EVER do is gossip, eat and share scrapbooks. Thanks for giving away our deep dark secrets. I love your comedy, it’s what drew me here, but am enjoying these more “serious” posts too (except for the idea that maybe you’re just joking with these as well but I’m not witty enough to catch it ;o)
HaRavette – Love what you wrote. This is my primary issue with the mainstream orthodox community, the rigidity and refusal to change and move along with the times.
I grew up in a Lubavitch home and therefore know next to nothing at all about Megillas Rus. I know the story, but not the halachos about reading the megilla. I have no issue personally with a woman reading it to men but I’m fairly certain a majority of the orthodox community would consider it not-kosher.
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