I am not trying to beat a dead horse with a stick here- but one of my uh…advertisers needed me to write about something which kind of went along with the post on women wearing pants. So without further ado…
While in yeshiva in Israel I learned several things, besides how to ride my bike through the Arab shuk in the middle of the night without getting stabbed. I learned that breast milk and humans were parve and why women don’t learn gemara, in fact these are the only things I can positively remember learning in Israel- shows you how much I showed up at classes.
The latter was taught to me by the famed Rabbi Orlofsky known for his famous speech to the Niveh girls program about how “all men are horny pigs” Well according to him all women are kind and compassionate and don’t learn gemara because they are too peaceful to do so.
In fact he said it something like this- when men learn gemara they get all riled up, start yelling and thumb dipping (thumb dipping is not tznius in some circles anyway) and slamming of fists goes on as well as other violent gestures, when all is said and done the men will take a coffee break and just move on to the next issue at hand.
Then he says, can you imagine women just moving on? First of all they would have a peaceful gemara session-
“oh Suzy, let me show you something in this mishna”
Wow Sharon thats great, take a look at this.
“So nice Suzy- what about this.”
Sharing is caring doesn’t flow with gemara he said during a rant one day- when one of the newly minted BT’s around the table asked why women learn tanach and not gemara- I personally wish it were the other way around. Tanach to me is like Braveheart Torah- wars, sex, bloodshed, betrayal and kick ass miracles- and we men are stuck with learning about oxen falling into pits and whether the courtyard is public property- sometimes I wish it were the other way around.
On a side note the only sect of the frum community I know that encourages the women to learn gemara is Chabad- any others?
On that note- for all those ladies that want to learn for a few weeks in Israel this summer- Nishmat is offering a 3 week summer study program for women of all ages and back rounds- it doesn’t appear to offer gemara classes so if you are morally opposed (that sounds retarded actually) but if you are opposed for some reason to women learning Talmud you are in luck. Oh its mad cheap- $750 for the entire program which runs from July 1-22.
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I’m glad you gave Chabad some credit there. I went to Lubavitch schools for most of my yeshiva career so the opposition to women learning Gemara was so foreign and strange to me when I heard about it.
What exactly is the opposition about? What is it based on? It can’t just be the “sharing is caring” thing, is there a deeper reason?
Well if I were a Charedi Rabbi I would say a few things. Assur!!!!!!
Its not tznius- their fave line.
We just don’t do it like that.
Gemara is too technical and it will take their minds off more important things like baby making and cooking.
Its not their role in life!
Sounds like Orlofsky has a very PC way of saying daitan kal.
No Comment!!!
But Hesh, you surprisd me with the reason of posting it now, never thought of you as the sellout kinda guy, although impressed with the honesty and being upfront about it.
I didn’t follow the posts until I saw the links. Pretty funny. When is the next video going up?
Thanks for the laughs..
lol. Funny post. But I am stymied–what in the world is thumb dipping? You totally lost me on that.
By the way Heimishe- I had to write that this specific time because otherwise people may accuse me of writing for comments and not for myself- which I think is the ultimate form of selling out.
By the way I do paid for postings all the time- and rarely say if it is- because unlike other people- I will only do the post if I can make it fun and write something good.
It’s not selling out if it’s made clear it’s advertorial, and it was. Not there’s anything wrong with making money. heimish, I would love to know your comments. If you don’t want to get into it here, feel free to spackle my blog with exclamation points against women studying gemara. I can handle it.
No- I want the comments- you comment whore (said endearingly of course)
You all can get into it right here- I am curious what people think about this issue- since its more of a philosophical rather then halachic issues.
By the way Keliata- I am going to do a post on what thumb dipping is for the uninitiated- its the yeshiva guy hand gesture for now.
Checked out the program. How sweet would it be to be able to take that much time off from work? Yay, mussar. And, “Classes include Chumash, Nach, Gemara, Halacha and Jewish Thought.” If I didn’t need to pretend to be a grown-up and have a job that offers health insurance, I’d totally do that. (For those who don’t know me, that would mean missing one great concert for which I already have a ticket and missing my one of my favorite music festivals of the year, which says A LOT; I’m kind of surprised, actually.)
robot voice: All Your Comments are Belong to Hesh.
I don’t care where he shares his thoughts, I’m just interested in them (I won’t take it personally, I know I can sit in on my rav’s gemara shiur any shabbos afternoon I’d like, if I’m in town).
most of the reason they don’t learn gemara probably has to do with the fact that they do not have the same obligation to learn torah that men have.
even in chabad, where women are taught some gemara, it’s only a little bit, in high school.
Lubab- never even thought of that.
ITS NOT TAKING MY RESPONSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that’s what you get for going off the derech, heimish. (I’m totally kidding with you, dude.)
Hesh can i send it to you? this is infuriating
Yes Hiemishe- and that goes for everyone if my site is giving you issues I can post your comments- just meail the comment to me- I will not expose your real name.
Hiemishe in BP sent this comment to my email:
heimish in bp
I have nothing against people making off their work and thoughts. If you will get to know me a little better, you will see I am very much an ultra-capitalist. In many ways that might even offend the socialist environment that has gripped this nation, lately, to my chagrin.
I just think/thought this blog was Hesh’s pure, unadulterated, non-influenced and true feelings about the craziness and stupidity in the frum community. And that’s what made it so appealing and interesting. As soon as it’s other telling him what to post, and how to post, and what not to post, it becomes a slippery slope just like any other form of censorship that impedes on the quality and content of Hesh’s posts.
But hey, it’s his blog.
As to the comments on this topic, (a) to be honest, after the whole pants fiasco, (which I am still working on a proper concise response), I feel kinda of the Rabbi here, although I don’t mind the attention, but its not at all how I want to come across as. I don’t want to be seen as this right wing nut who thinks we should all be lemmings and not have our own thoughts. And (b), I haven’t actually formed an educated and informed opinion about the topic, so just to come and blurt out what’s on my mind, I feel, is not called for(except Hesh, if you want to share the loot).
my two cents – as a teen i was in a sunday gemara class, only girl with a bunch of boys. i loved it, i loved the thrust and parry of the arguments. however, one of the boys complained to mommy dearest and i was asked to leave the class as the boys were feeling self conscious about discussing gemara with a girl who was obviously smarter than they were.
we’ve all seen yentl, and heard various reasons why women can’t / shoudn’t learn gemara. if a woman has time, there is no reason why she shouldnt learn. I hear my sons discussing gemara and mishna and i do my best to join in the discussion. Es passt nisht for a mom to learn gemara with her sons, apparently, because it sets a bad example – it shows that women have brains. what the heck is wrong with us using them???
Sorry hesh to hijack your comments section for a rant, but it really bugs me to be told what i can and cannot learn just because i have a womb.
agreed totally. Guys should take gemara seriously because of our time bound mitzvos, but what if you have a son that needs help, and his mom knows halacha/? if a woman has time they totally should learn Gemara. Theres alot of sexism in Yeshiva since its all guys, most of it is jokes, but women can do anything, just a matter of them not being bound to the same Mitzvot as men.
“I feel kinda of the Rabbi here”
You’re not the rabbi; you can barely write English. I’m the rabbi, Heimish; I’m the rabbi! lmao
Seriously, if I learn from your comments, that’s great, but I learn from lots of people’s comments. That’s the fun part about not knowing everything. Will I cut you a check? No. Will I appreciate your source citations? Absolutely! And that is why I like your comments, and that is why I tease you. You can back your words up with sources. Anything less is, well, less.
As for the ads, there have been ads on here for ages. If you’re playing in black and white, advertorial is just another format of ad delivery.
LOL, didnt know writing proper english was a prerequisite of being a Rabbi.
Live and learn.
“women of all ages and back round”
So was that a typo or on purpose? Coming so close after the skirt vs pants post I cant help but wonder?
Hadassah thank you for the rant- I was going to call this site frum rants originally so by all means go ahead- you can our soothsayer.
Chris I promise next week will be only retarded comedy- besides for the blogger carnival to be posted Saturday night- I promise Monday will bring some fresh ideas.
Maybe even tonight…
Hesh – uh oh, do you have any idea what you are doing by encouraging me to rant? there will be no stopping me…..watch out!!!
heimish, writing proper English is under being a woman on the prerequisites list.
Hadassah, I like your comments.
Hesh, what’s the theme for the carnival?
I guess that explains the bracha I make every morning.
nishmat is awesome – and hard-core gemara learning is one of the best parts of their program!
I honestly don’t understand why some believe women should not study gemara. The Lubavitcher Rebbe said (I am paraphrasing here) that if girls in are going to be sharpening their minds on math and science, let them also sharpen their minds on a Jewish subject. Doesn’t that make logical sense to other frum people?
Lubab – He did say it in regard to high school girls but I know plenty of Chabad women who have continued to learn Gemara as adults (some with their husbands!)
Learning Gemara has so many mental advantages that it’s a shame for girls and women to be missing out. It really helps train people how to think. It was one of the only Judaic subjects I paid any attention to (though that could be because I love arguments!) it required thinking and back and forth and it was fascinating!
Surely women can peek at a Gemara while they stir the pot and/or when the babies nap. There is so much that is relevant to women in Gemara! The topic I remember most vividly was about eruv tavshilim, cooking on one day of yom tov for the next – that’s so much more relevant to women than to men.
I think it’s a way to keep women down, keep them from thinking, keep them reliant on their husbands and Rabbis.
Hadassah – I’m sure you’re going to keep learning with your boys,and thanks to you they won’t grow up with the misogynistic tendencies I see in a lot of religious men. (Not all! don’t go jumping on my case… I said a LOT.)
heimish, as much as it explains the one I make, too.
Oh, chanief, you just reminded me about something related to the pants post; I’ll put it in there.
BTW Hesh – side note here, but that link leads to a page with a photo of not one woman in short sleeves, but TWO!!! Are you trying to lead people off the derech? What kind of Jewish learning institute would put such a photo on their website? Such pritzus, oh I can barely stand it!
I have found that sometimes ,if there are not too many people around and I am sneaky, I can glom in on a gemara discussion my friends’ husbands are having and they will include me. It is WAY more interesting than the sheitel and diapers conversation the women are usually having in the other room!
Hadassah, I think it is awesome that you participate in learning with your sons. You are setting a great example for them. I hope to be able to do the same thing when my boys get older.
(p.s. I read the post on your blog about haircovering and tried to add my 2 cents, but it didn’t work)
Anyone who thinks all women are kind and peaceful all the time and not argumentative and can’t argue and then move on, should really come meet me. Really.
See this is one of the things that pisses me off about frum people (and I say that because I have NEVER heard someone not frum express these sentiments, and I have heard MANY frum people do so). They all keep telling me how women are, and what women act like and want. And all those things never seem to apply to me. And ain’t I a woman?
“That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain’t I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain’t I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man – when I could get it – and bear the lash as well! And ain’t I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother’s grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain’t I a woman?”
~Sojourner Truth
Someone, SOMEONE!!!, PLEASE respond to this! I officially get paid by the hour, and to give a proper response will take way to long.
But there is got to be someone out there, withe a better command of the english language then me, to stand up for Yiddishkeit, for tradition, for something. Come on, we cant allow this to go on like this. one, people will somehow get teh notion that its allowed, and two, the hits will be much less without the contraversy. SO Speak Up, and Defend Yiddishkeit!!!
Hear Hear, Abandoning Eden! I think the women not learning gemara issue is a throwback to when women and girls were not taught ANY Torah inside, it was all Tzena Urena. Slowly they started phasing in Tanach and Halacha, but nowadays when everything is a “crisis” people (read: Rabbis) are too paranoid to allow Gemara learning. It might give women too much information or something. And Hesh, a lot of Gemara sounds really spicy from what I hear. Maybe they skip those parts in Yeshiva though.
Tzena Urana hahaha- sounds like Uranus- sorry just trying to interject some humor.
Heehee…I think if we keep going like this here we make Heimish’s head explode. Poor guy.
nah, I think Heimish is finally playing with us, too.
“What exactly is the opposition about? What is it based on? It can’t just be the “sharing is caring” thing, is there a deeper reason?”
The “deeper reason” is that al pi Halacha women are not supposed to be doing something that they are not obligated to do. Learning any Torah except Tanach (and mitzvos that they have to know… in a concise form), donning tefillin (besides other problems with it) etc., etc. Are you already on the level of beinoni for all the things you are obligated to do? If not, why are you taking upon yourself things which you’re not supposed to do? The Rebbe’s message and derech Chabad is not do look what in yiddishkeit makes us comfortable but what in yiddishkeit we have to do to make dira betachtoinim. As the Alter Rebbe said: “You talk a lot about what you need; you don’t say anything about what you’re needed for.” The first part (“what you need”) may refer not only to gashmius, but also to “what you need to feel fulfilled spiritually” — and still, we put “what you’re needed for” above this.
So, you ask, why did the Rebbe say what he said about women learning Gemara? Very simple: it was bedieved. As long as women are already learning secular subjects in order to survive in the modern world, they might as well get the best education possible. As long as they are learning Math to sharpen their logic, they might as well learn Gemara. As long as women cannot be true chassidim in our generation by just being born in a chassidishe family and learning from their parents, siblings and husbands, they might as well learn Chassidus. Not that this is ideal, and if we could go back to the times of Tzemach Tzedek, we would, but this is how things are, and it is by h”p that they are this way, so let’s make the best of it: let us spread Torah into the areas where before we were not supposed to, but now where we are forced to by the changing world (which is controlled by the Eibeshter obviously). It is like this for any other thing: is it appropriate for a Chassid to go live in Taiwan to spread yiddishkeit there? No, but in our generation he has to, and it is by h”p, because it will light even this corner of the world.
So, why don’t other people allow women to learn Gemara then? Simply because they don’t see it as the Rebbe saw it — they don’t recognize that the situation in the world has changed and women poshut need a little more learning to stay frum yidden and Chassidim and they believe that women will retain their yiddishkeit just by living in a frum community (which is a mistaken thinking — for both men and women), and therefore one should not compromise Halacha by going b’dieved way. If you disagree with them (as you should), fine, but don’t confuse the Rebbe’s reasons for women learning Gemara with the MO reasons: “I feel inferiour to men, I don’t feel fulfilled in my spirituality, and my ego is not bloated enough”.
Next on Frum Satire: Cholov Yisroel: Fact of Fiction? I can see it now in the video…drinking nestle flavored milk.
AF, I think you have made a very broad assumption about why MO women might want to learn Gemara.
My reasons for occaisionally wishing that I had the ability to learn Gemara are not because “I feel inferiour to men, I don’t feel fulfilled in my spirituality, and my ego is not bloated enough”. Rather there are times I would like to actually see and read the halacha and the reasons why we do certain things with my own eyes. Yes, of course, I could run to a Rav with eveything that crosses my mind, but it would be nice to have the skills to look it up myself too, and then go to a Rav with an intelligently formulated question if I need more explanation.
Okay, buddy (heimish, in this case), I did some homework for you (and everyone else who likes cited sources). Check out my blog. I threw up some links to Hihurim, which covers this topic. I haven’t read ‘em yet, but their citations are always ample and I trust them. (if you do a web search for women study gemara, you’ll find plenty of classes)
AF,
Very well put. Interesting pshat on the Alter Rebbe’s “what are you needed for” instructions.
Optimally, women shouldn’t need gemara or intense lomdus to stay spiritual. It’s only if you view a husband and wife as two seperate entities that it’s possible for one to be “oppressing” the other by denying them the right to learn or whatever new feminist BS the MO are coming up with today.
The emes is they are two halves of a whole fulfilling different and equally important responsibilities.
Wow looks like I’m late to the party! Hesh, I think after your interview, you’re going to be getting a lot of comments from now on. Also, you’re writing amazingly interesting posts!
In general, I agree with AF, the idea is that their is a sort of heirarchy of priorities when it comes to Torah. The people who have a problem with women learning gemarah are often the ones who have a problem with people learning chassidus: their issue is, do these people have the basics of halacha and hashkafa and tanach knowledge before they start confusing themselves with gemarah? If the average person opens a gemarah with insufficient skills, they will be pretty confused and may be just wasting their time and not really understanding what they are learning.
Incidentally, I went to a Bais Yaakov for high school and a Chabad seminary where they attempted to teach me gemarah. I was pretty darn confused, what with all the Aramaic and odd terminology. And I didn’t get much out of it, though the girls who had learned some in high school did better.
I think all the explainations about “pas nisht” and pot stirring and baby making are nonsense that entered the scene later on. The real reason why women are not really encouraged to learn gemarah is that the average women lacks the training and skills to do it right. Like someone trying to sit in on a 4th year astrophysics class without taking the prerequisites.
That said, I see no reason why if a woman was interested and willing to put up the time and effort needed to gain the skills and learn it right, she should be discouraged from doing so.
I’ve never been so inclined. I definately prefer Hesh’s “Braveheart Torah” but I know girls who really dig the gemarah thing.
Anon: Kudos to you for learning with your kids, that’s really special and it’s something that will stay with them forever.
Frum Librarian: I think that’s actually another reason why women are discouraged. I remember my rabbi once taking away a volume of gemarah from me and saying “Here, learn this one instead” because that one was too…graphic. Maybe they could censor G-rated gemarahs for girls?
The whole two halves of a whole fullfilling different and important responsibilities is great. In large part I believe that too…But there are those of us who, for various reasons, don’t have that other half. What then?
Anonymous (2:15):
1) Get married.
2) All Jews are one single entity. When one soul puts on tefillin, every soul puts on tefillin. Etc.
Anonymous (1:18):
You don’t need Gemara to see detailed understanding of mitzvos for a question for a Rav. You should go to works of rishoinim or achroinim. Shulchan Aruch, Beis Yosef (if you want to see discussion), Mishna Brura, Shulchan Aruch HaRav and the like will probably cover your needs sufficiently. And women are not only allowed but required to study halachos pertaining to them (I assume your question to a rav that you want to be more prepared for does not concern karbon Peisach etc.).
Also: you don’t go to a Rav for what clear-cut cases you can learn about in Shulchan Aruch. Back in the days, women knew if chicken was unkosher just by looking at it (which is an example of something you learn — whether from books or from your mother). You go to a Rav in case there is a machloikes, and one posek says it’s kosher, and the other one says it’s not.
(Wow, the smiley are way too happy for my taste…)
Get married….Ah, were it that easy! Haven’t you heard? There’s a sidduch crisis! Thanks for the suggestion though
(and, yeah, I agree – that smiley is a little intense.)
AF is right. We are not supposed to learn halacha l’ma’aseh from gemarah! Too many conflicting opinions and different minhagim!
Anon, I realize your question is serious and deserves a deep and thoughtful answer, which I don’t have. The easy answer that I learned in school is that women get a reward for facilitating the Torah study of their husbands, and if they are not married, their fathers, brothers, and sons. If they don’t yet have men in their lives to help with their Torah study, donating tzedakah to a yeshiva counts too.
I couldn’t bare it no longer so here it goes.
S(b) I am not sure you if you misspelled on purpose or mistake, but you did it three times. The word is Hirhurim, which means “thoughts” and not Hihurim.
From the articles you linked, you can see that this topic is very complex and obviously something that has been fought about by those who are way bigger then any of us here, I think.
For all those who abandoned, left, modified, modernized, twisted, or on the way back to yiddiskeit, might find the following statements crazy, stupid, close-minded, or just misinformed. Fine, but it is nothing more then the thoughts in my mind nothing more. And as s(b) said “without citations is less,” so the following is less
Most orthodox families (which include: chasidish, litvish, yekish, heimish yerushalmi, and a big chunk of the average non-affiliated American orthodox), and I said MOST, are brought up with the notion that a women’s place (don’t throw the rocks yet, wait it gets worse) in a Jewish home is the Akeras Habais. The foundation of the home. Meaning that she should be the pillar behind the family. She will bring the children into the family, she will raise then, she will bathe them, feed them, nurture them, prepare them for this harsh world and most important, instill in them the basics of ahavas and yiras Hashem (I can’t believe I am writing this!!!!)
Their place in the home goes much further. It is their responsibility to be the pillar behind their husband who should toil for the provisions of the family. Those duties include: (don’t yell) cooking, cleaning, washing dishes, washing clothing, shopping, (which they picked up pretty good), caring for the all around good and stability of the home. As a married person, and a family of my own, I have really learned to appreciate and respect what a true ayshis chail means, and would never underscore the height and the weight of these responsibilities. And don’t envy it at all.
Now, (god, put the right words into my keyboard), although in year 2008, the boundary lines, differentiating between the man and the women has basically been obliterated, and besides for the actual bearing of the children, men and women are seen as basically equal as to their responsibilities to the family, we as orthodox people want to uphold these boundaries, and feel that the only way to have yidishkeit continue to blossom and grow, is by keeping these lines clear and bright.
Now once a person accepts this notion, and understands that we don’t want her to be preoccupied, and busy with other responsibilities, and be busy with anything, a lot of these questions will fall away.
I am no where near this madrega, however I do see the very different levels of this inborn understanding in my parent’s age versus my age, (30) and it does have a lot to do with the notion of equality. In the 21st century, we are supposed to be equal. Yes maybe according to the law, but not according to the torah. One is not necessarily more then the other, but that doesn’t make us equal. Each gender has its own responsibility, to Hashem and its family.
Now I do realize that a big chunk of those who have voiced their opinion,( s(b), chanief, Ahuva, AE, frumlibrarian) are females who are not living their lives in the above mentioned orthodox manner. For them, understandingly, it is not an easy notion to accept, and nor am I here to tell them, or anyone, how to feel or act about anything. I am just trying to give you a little insight as to why we want, or supposed to want, to bring up our families this way.
When one does accept this notion and wants to live by it, he will not want his wife to be busy learning davening, going to school, having a career, and so on.
A lot of what others have commented are true as to why they should or shouldn’t, I am just explaining why by some of us, it is a non-issue, and why we don’t even think it’s a big issue.
You’re not supposed to Pasken from Gemara? You’re not allowed to Pasken from the Gemara. If you were, Judaism would look very different than it does today. The reason we have Shulchan Oruch telling us what to do is because there were greater people than us (I know, hard to imagine anyone was greater than us) who knew what they were doing who Paskened for us.
Heimish, on a theoretical level I totally agree with you. I wish more men I know gave as much kavod as you to the great effort involved in being the foundation of the home.
But I think some women just aren’t wired that way. Or life just doesn’t work out that way. And women who don’t fit into that role end up feeling marginalized by the frum community. The solution? Beats me!
HEIMISH YOU ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I really love your point of view and its good to know that I’m not the only “crazy” orthodox person reading this blog!
AF, if only things were as simple to make happen as they are to type (“get married.”)
Heimish, I made the same typo three times. If I were in Asia, I might have to commit ceremonial suicide out of shame, at this point. I fixed the two on my blog.
Question: how come you wrote, “(I can’t believe I am writing this!!!!)?” It’s not like you’re preaching it. I learned the same thing, I just didn’t learn the Hebrew name for it (I discover that a lot, actually).
I don’t live an orthobox lifestyle (I just made up that word. It means conforming to social orthodoxy and does not reflect adherence to halacha or things inside that go on between the individual and Hashem). If someone’s rockin’ the ‘dox and makes time to learn, in addition to her regular responsibilities, more power to her. If your middle name’s not frumslice and you feel like learning, hey, kol hakavod. And if anyone got in either of those theoretical women’s ways, I’d stick up for their rights to learn.
happy to be here, happy to be alive. I’ll catch up on other comments later, if I don’t wind up working tonight.
Sorry, the name should say Dude! Ma bad!
s(b.):
ORTHOBOX!!!
I love you for coining that word!
Heehee…Dud. Nice typo.
Yeah, thought it was mad funny too! Especially since im called anything but!
–” I know plenty of Chabad women who have continued to learn Gemara as adults (some with their husbands!)”
the point was only that they don’t start earlier (also they learn very little) compared to boys.
–”Surely women can peek at a Gemara while they stir the pot and/or when the babies nap.”
gemara is not really the thing to learn when you can only take a peek, it (usually) takes a bit more concentration.
–”There is so much that is relevant to women in Gemara! The topic I remember most vividly was about eruv tavshilim, cooking on one day of yom tov for the next – that’s so much more relevant to women than to men.”
for that you have shulchan aruch, you shouldn’t pasken halachos from gemara.
Heimish, Heimish, Heimish…. It may surprise you to learn that although I don’t live a strictly Orthodox life, my view on a woman’s role in the family is very similar to what you’ve written about.
I have been a stay-at-home mom to my children since birth, put my husband through school, run a small home-based business and for this past school year have even home schooled the little brats, er, I mean angels!
I do believe that a wife and mother should raise her children and support her husband – and despite considering myself a feminist have chosen this sort of lifestyle.
I do have to very strenuously disagree with this statement “we as orthodox people want to uphold these boundaries, and feel that the only way to have yidishkeit continue to blossom and grow, is by keeping these lines clear and bright.”
Keeping those lines clear and bright? Frum children go to school at a much younger age than most of the world’s children, and I’d say a good 98% of the frum women I know work outside of the home, some of them to support their husband’s learning habit! Many frum mothers I know do not HAVE to work but do so to have more money for shopping, or because they just cannot stand to be home with their many children. I see so many little ones spending more time with their nanny or cleaning lady then their yiddishe mamas.
Please explain how you reconcile the reality of what I see on a daily basis as opposed to the ideal you speak of. And I do agree that your theory is ideal. Even though I am not raising my children in a strictly orthodox manner, I know that their feelings for Judaism and their identity within the religion is going to be formed primarily through me and I do NOT take that responsibility lightly.
Anon 3:24, some women definitely aren’t wired that way, but it is an ideal for raising children to have the mother be the warm, steadfast core of the home and family.
Dude! Dud! LOLOLOL!
s(b) I too am loving your new word – orthobox. I may use that some day, somewhere, but don’t worry I’ll give you credit ;o)
Lubab – Obviously they are starting to learn it at a later age and are learning it less than boys. I was merely giving props to Chabad that it is ok that women learn Gemara. I was being facetious when I said she can peek at it while the baby naps. As far as paskening from gemara, I did not mean to imply that that’s what women are doing, I was just pointing out that there is so much in there that is relevant and interesting to women and that I agree with the Rebbe’s position that if women are sharpening their minds on secular subjects, they may as well be doing it on an equally challenging Jewish subject.
s(b.) said “If I were in Asia, I might have to commit ceremonial suicide out of shame, at this point. ”
Nice stereotyping there. FYI *ritual* (not ceremonial) suicide is not a pan-asian phenomenon, and it has come to be considered a serious social problem here in Japan. It devastates families and is not something to joke about.
Racial/cultural sensitivities aside, please think twice before making this kind of joke again.
abandoning eden – wonderful quote from sojourner truth. perfect.
I thought that suicide stuff was only meant for Samuri warriors who embarrased themselves, Its done all over?
No, Mike. I should’ve said Japan. Chris, I’m sorry you thought I was joking or being culturally insensitive.
As one who spends time copy editing professionally, I take my typos very seriously. In fact, I am mortified by them.
(I know I’ve been joking around like it’s happy hour all day, but I’m being totally serious, now.)
I like samurai — they remind me of mussar — hardcore. I didn’t realize it is such an issue in Japan today.
Out of respect for the families affected, I probably not refer to it again, but rest assured, I take my typos VERY seriously, I am deeply ashamed when I don’t catch them. In quantity, as before, I find them mortifyingly embarrassing.
You have no idea how much I wish I could edit mine in the comment, above. For my sanity’s sake, I’ve learned to force myself to let my feelings go, when they happen, but it’s not always easy.
chanief,
Did you read AF’s point above? Women shouldn’t need gemara! It’s a 100% bedieved situation that in order to stay an engaged and frum women, she needs to engage in intense lomdus after marriage.
The Rebbe dealt with the situation at hand but this is not the optimal by any stretch. Women don’t have the chiyuv because they have other (at least equal and possibly more important) responsibilities that take up usually 150% of their time.
Anon – I’m confused. Did you read mine? Where did I say that women need Gemara? Where did I say that it was or should be a chiyuv for women to engage in intense lomdus?
Really, who cares whether it is “optimal” or not for women to need to engage in learning to keep them spiritually engaged? Unfortunately we live in a far less than optimal world, so talking about whether it’s a perfect world or ideal situation is rather pointless.
Whether it fits into the Orthodox mold or not, there are women that have the desire to learn just for the sake of learning or improving themselves. Is it better that they spend time delving into, say philosophy, or Gemara? The world is changing and the Orthodox world needs to wake up and smell the quad venti half caf non fat mocha latte with no foam, leave room, before it loses more of it’s bright young people.
______________
Let’s get back to basics here for a second… women should not or can not learn x y and z because they have no chiyuv for it. They’re too busy making babies, they don’t need to know these things, they should rely on men to tell them what to do, bla bla blabbity bla bla, etcetera, etcetera and so on and so forth… Hmmmm, who created these rules?
Who again?
Oh riiiight. A bunch of men (probably in robes!)
Whatever.
i (a girl) learned gemara for 5 years in a chabad day school and went to a beis yakov for high school (culture shock major!). in my beis yakov they had a secret gemara class for the daughters of the feminists (all four of them) and the school didn’t even offer the class to out-of-towners like myself. funny thing was, the beis yakov had no teacher for the gemara class and had to hire a local chabad shaliach to teach it which made for interesting happenings.
overall, girls learning gemara is fine as long as they’re not doing it from stupid motivations – feministic/wannabe-rabbi feelings. in my high school, the girls who took gemara hated it but wouldn’t drop the class because they wanted to say that they learn gemara. that’s just ridiculous. if a gril is a legitimate intellectual and enjoys learning – fine.
my rebbe used to tell me, everyone should learn gemara because it teaches you how to think. but you need to know how to think to learn it.
s(b.) “I probably not refer to it again”
Lets see, you are a copy editor, yet the quote above is missing a verb and is part of a run on sentence. Go stand in the corner with your head hung in shame and remind me not to hire you for an editing job (^_^)
To continue to be off topic for a moment, s(b.) and Mikeinmidwood, its not just something from ancient history. To get an overview of the contemporary problem here in Japan, just google the words suicide and Japan. The young and the old, the rich and the poor all take their own lives, solo or in groups.
This maybe abstract since it is happening half a world away from you (and to gentiles anyway), but please take a moment to think about what drives a human to that point, how it affects their families. Even if it is considered by some to be the “honorable way out” of a problem, the surviving family members have to bear social costs as well as their own grief. How do the parents of a child who has taken their own life face their friends or the parents of their departed child’s friends or classmates? What goes through the mind of a child now fatherless when they have to face their classmates or when the mother has to become the sole supporter of the family. A tragedy like this is never something to laugh about.
That having been said, I’ll back off and continue to watch y’all bicker about gender equality and education.
Wow – that’s a lot of comments – too many to catch up with. Good post, Hesh, and the comments I read were pretty insightful too.
Chanief, I am actually very pleased to hear your lifestyle choices, and wish that some more, even in the “orthobox” world, will follow your ways, in being home for their kids. I was very fortunate, that my Mom was home for me, but I see how in her later years she became a businesswomen, because my father was barely able to put bread on his table, and my younger siblings are suffering immensely, and my heart goes out for them, and sometimes I feel myself acting as a surrogate mom/dad, and its horrible.
However, a few comments about your comment. What does the age of when kids start going to school, have anything to do with my comment? Please clarify.
Then, what did you mean by “to support their learning habit”? You weren’t serious about calling it a habit, were you? I mean, its ironic, but I just heard a shiur last night from Rabbi Frand, that made it very clear, that every man, and I said man, has a chiuv to learn torah, as much as is humanly possible according to his god-given abilities. A MITZVAHS ASEH OF V’HIGISI BU, YOMOM V’LOILA!!!! A habit??? Come on, that’s beneath you. Just a low blow for no reason. Take that back.
As to reconciling my theory and reality, I don’t, because I am very clear, from my own experience as well, that it is very hard in today’s day and age to be able to have a nice size Jewish family, and still be able to support them properly. From childbirth, until they leave kollel. That doesn’t make it right, and being one who came from a family, who didn’t have anything, but still had my mother there would wish that most mothers in our community will see it the way I see it now in retrospect, that the seventh yomtov outfit is not that important, the third pair of shoes is also not that important, I know what you are talking about, I am living it. Being home when the kid gets off the bus with a smile, will go miles for your kid. Cooking them a good hearty supper (not pizza, and again pizza), and sitting with them by supper table like a mentch, listening to them about their day, and not flting in and out of the house ever two seconds will have an immense effect on the kid, that years of therapy can never do.
However if you read the conclusion of my comment, I am just explaining to you why we don’t feel the need to justify them not learning Gemarah, because we DO want to keep the lines separated as much as possible. We can only do what we can. My mom’s generation was brought up very different them my wife’s generation. Does it bother me? Of course it does. When we were going out, I made it very clear to my wife that I would really want a stay at home mom. Today, I realize how hard it is on her, and I, me, myself and I, doesn’t have the power, the gravitas, the chutzpah to ask her do with out these things. That doesn’t mean I make a conscious choice of blurring the lines of responsibility or place in the home.
(Sorry for the long comment)
chanief,
“Unfortunately we live in a far less than optimal world, so talking about whether it’s a perfect world or ideal situation is rather pointless.”
I agree with all your comments. But maybe we can look at the situation from a slightly different angle, and say that we live in a world far more optimal than our forefathers lived in? The strict boundaries between men and women that heimish keeps referring to were invented in a world where women washed clothing in the river and ground their own flour for bread. In our current age of microwaves, washing machines, and cars, I think that women who have some spare time could definately use it to learn gemarah, why not?
I don’t think gender roles are obselete. But I think some of the expectations of household duties from women, are obselete.
Heimish…There are actaully a lot of us women who make the choice to be stay at home moms. And I think you are totally correct in that sitting with the kids during dinner and greeting them at the end of the day is far better than fancy shabbat outfits. It makes me sick when I see kids in the park on shabbat with $200 outfits and a nanny overseeing them.
But you have to acknowledge that many men in the frum comminity do not hold the tradtional wife/mother role in as high regard as you. And of course a man should lean Torah, but there has to be a balance. So many of my friends feel like single mothers because every minute their husbands are not in the office they are in the beit midrash. The kids often go days without seeing their fathers. I don’t think learning as much as humanly possible should come at the expense of neglecting a wife and children.
btw…I really ought to come up with a screen name…too many anonymous’s out there.
HESH:
“On a side note the only sect of the frum community I know that encourages the women to learn gemara is Chabad”
i was not aware chabad teaches gemara to women. is it the same way the boys learn or is it cut-and-paste style?
“any others?”
sure. check out stern college, revel, drisha, a lot of MO schools (some cut-and-paste and others like the boys), brovender’s, etc.
r. orlofsky’s reasoning just doesn’t make sense. first of all, it is simply wrong that you can’t learn gemara if you have a personality that is peaceful, unassertive, etc. (and what about guys with this personality?). thumbing, yelling, slamming fists, etc. is not an intrinsic part of learning gemara. secondly, where does he get the notion that women are too peaceful and unassertive to learn gemara? maybe he’s never been shopping on 13th ave, but how does he explain all the gun-wielding chayalot, in particular the ones who train the men to fight and kill? if the chayalot can handle palestinians during an Old City riot or at a west bank checkpoint, surely they can handle some yelling with a chevrusa.
also, it’s this type of logic that was used to keep women out of various professions until recently.
were the BTs in your class seriously convinced by all this?
thanks for reinforcing my view that some rabbonim are so out of touch with reality.
(good shabbos)
“a women’s place (don’t throw the rocks yet, wait it gets worse) in a Jewish home is the Akeras Habais . . .”
so what’s up with all those kollel families where the women are forced to work and the kids are left to be raised in overcrowded daycare or by (gentile) babysitters. you can’t have it both ways. either the women belong at home or they don’t.
Lion, I totally agree…that is one of my biggest gripes with that segment of the community. It is just not fair to ask the women to work, have huge families, and keep up the home.
Chris, I never said I edit my own writing. lol I actually sent that from my car last night, so I didn’t have much of a screen on which to check over my words available, at the time. You will never see my best work; that’s half the beauty of it.
If you would like some noodles made by a nice, Jewish boy from Long Island, check out Ivan Ramen, 3-24-7 Minamikarasuyama, Setagaya-ku, Tokyo 157-0062 (website is name of restaurant, plus common web suffix)
I don’t think it’s a kosher restaurant, but the owner’s a pal of my pal, Mike’s, with whom he went to school as a wee lad.
IF YOU ROCK A BLACK HAT (or YOU LOVE SOMEONE WHO DOES), what’s your favorite tzedakah? I have a fun idea. (really, it’s cool; trust my good heart for a minute, okay?)
Of the first three tzedakahs named, HEIMISH or Dude!, please pick one (whoever picks one first of three gets to be the picker).
(next month it’ll be a tzedakah chosen by pants-wearing women, with the gateway women as pickers)
This is another reason why failures of the beis medrash system should not be giving speeches.
Don’t get me wrong, Rabbi Orlofsky is funny, he knows how to get a woman to laugh. Really, really hard.
But when it comes to content–as opposed to touchy-feely nonsense and a smug, selg-righteous pseduo-intellectual set of relatively sharp questions–he stinks. His ideas can be expressed in three minutes, but it takes him an hour to get to the point. Worse, I don’t think the man knows enough to really talk about the subjects he pontificates about.
We all know that the talmidei chachomim from Yerushalayim were different from their counterparts in Bavli in that the former really did not argue, but rather pretty much learned in the manner in which Rav Orlofsky suggested women would learn. Obviously, his answer, then, is wrong.
I am not big into the entire concept of why when it comes to hashkafa. I think its more important to understand the what–to figure out how much, or little, a person knows, and to work up from there from CLASSIC sources. But if one is to explain the why, he better not miss out on something as obvious as this.
The chiyuv of men and women with regards to Torah learning is different. This is recognized by Poskim. That’s it. In the words of the Beis Halevi, the Torah is mivhayev men to learn; but the mitvah obligates the women to learn. That is to say, that women have to learn what to do. Men have to learn to learn. If women were to to perfectly scrupulous in their mitzvah performance, I would entertain the questions. But if a girl who hangs out with boys (the crowd that Rav Orlofsky specializes in) wants to learn Gemara, please, there is a lot of BASIC halacha which they must first become familiar with. Do these girls come from homes where they even have sufficient knowledge in Hilchos Shabbos? I doubt it.
If women want to learn, let them learn anything in Orach Chaim. Any siman. They can pick. Let them understand the sevaros if they are so intellectually inclined. There is plenty to keep them busy. But they don’t want that. They want to be like men. THAT’s why they should not learn. Torah is ABOVE political statements, it is the essence of Hashem–and it is the vehicle through which we can become Tahor. Respect for its halacha and fear of God is the stepping stone for limud hatorah. And if you don’t want to have that, then you don’t belong anywhere near a gemara.
Do you or any women you know donate old shaitels to Kupat Hair?
I’ve never heard of that, but you and Yitzchok both lean to the right. Pick a tzedokah, any tzedokah. I’m serious. This’ll be fun.
I did a search for wigs and tzedakah. How do you feel about zichron menachem (site is zichron dot org)? They make wigs for Israeli kids with cancer who want them and do other fun things for kids with cancer. (and the girl in the picture is wearing a skirt and long sleeves)
Here’s the deal. I have $18. I’ll donate 50 cents for every post-havdalah picture of a guy who wore a colored shirt to shul on shabbos on June 14th (Father’s Day weekend). So that’s up to 36 guys wearing colored shirts to shul that shabbos. (If I had a ton of money, I’d offer more, but I don’t; I can swing $18 and have fun getting guys to wear colored shirts to shul; raising money for tzedakah’s just a little bonus.
If someone who rocks a sheitl knows a more sheitltastic tzedakah, please post it, and these guys will be month #3’s tzedakah destination.
Guys, please send your pictures to a man (can I have a volunteer, please? I have enough temptation in my life as it is, and I don’t want to be looking at married guys; I have no interest. HEIMISH, can you handle men in colored shirts? Someone, please step up [I really don't care about getting pictures of guys, I'm thinking more of your modesty than mine].
This gives folks two weeks to find a clean, colored shirt to wear to shul, if they want to participate. This will be done on the honors system, but the idea is to get guys who usually wear white shirts to wear a colored shirt to shul on shabbos (unless there is a law against it of which I’m not aware; if so, please cite source).
Next month is women who don’t usually wear pants wearing pants on a weekday, not to shul. I will not post any pictures anywhere without anyone’s explicit permission. I don’t care if faces are blacked out, just please take an honest picture.
And, Hesh, if I paypal the funds to you, will you send the money on to the tzedakah du month from the readers of Frum Satire? (if you don’t feel like doing it, I’ll do it, and make a .pdf of the thank you letter and post it)
This was much more exciting to giggle to myself about than it was to type out. The sheitl/colored shirt thing is for May (it’s May, today).
Pants is June, money to be donated in early July. If anyone else wants to sponsor men who don’t wear colored shirts wearing colored shirts or women who dig pants but don’t usually wear them wearing pants pants, by all means, feel free. If you disagree with wearing pants in public, please don’t wear them in public! This is for fun. If anyone has any ideas for the third round of this, please let me know. Thank you.
Have a great shabbos and a wonderful shabbat,
sarah
Chris, I know my punctuation above was atrocious. la la la; it’s all good, man. If you want to do something funky and you’re reading this and you’re not jewish, I’ve got $2.00 for four people to do something innovative in their communities each month.
I could write these posts and create discussion if you folks want- but I will try to keep it funny- I just don’t want to write for the sake of comments- but if I could bring up issues in a comic light I will definitely try and do so.
From Saturday night until Monday afternoon- the Haviel Halelim linking over 100 different Jewish blog postings will be up- so be sure to check that out.
s(b.)
Thanks for understanding the light heartedness of my grammar critique. If I really cared about grammar and spelling, I would not be able to deal with this site at all.
I hope this doesnt mean that if I join the tribe that my own writing will deteriorate 
Thanks for the pointer to Ivan Ramen. The wife says she’s heard of it and that the food is supposed to be very good. There’s no way on earth it could be kosher though considering that pork bones & fat are used for the ramen soup and most every bowl of ramen will have a few slices of baked pork floating on the top.
As for doing something good, put the money in your nearest tzedakah box. I’ll make a point to do an extra “good deed for the day”. If you feel you must send your money to Asia, I understand there’s a building campaign going on over at chabad dot jp. I have no affiliation with them and am not trying to endorse anything, just pointing something out.
You’re doing a great job, Hesh; just keep being you. Humor puts folks at ease; then we throw rocks at each other with smiles on our faces.
s(b.) yes, i can handle guys in colored shirts on shabbos. I can hande much more then that. A couple of more such posts and you might get a better picture of who and what I am about.
I just hope you understand that promoting colored shirts is not the same as pants wearing.
As to my favorite tzedaka, i dont have one. I was never a fan of orginized tzedakah. ( we will fight that out in another post). But if you want to donate money to somebody, i find giving to a person who learns all day and cant make ends meet, the most rewarding.
Hesh, please respond to my friday email
Sorry heimishe busy weekend- will do.
I agree about your tzedaka philosophy- my brotheris trying to raise money to learn full time next year if your interested.
A few points, in no particular order:
1. R’ Orlofsky is not a posek. He’s a comedian. This is not to make light of him, because he is able to use his humor to bring people closer to Torah. But, as others have said, his stregnth is his STYLE rather than CONTENT – in my humble op at least.
And I agree, I don’t see how the BTs (or even many FFBs) were convinced by his “women are too nice for gemara” argument.
2. I have heard that the Mishna Brura says that the “issur” for women to learn Gemara no longer applies, just as the “issur” to learn Torah no longer applies. I will do my best to find a source.
3. There’s a lot of mention of women not learning Gemara for the “wrong reasons.” What about MEN learning Gemara for the “wrong reason”? Or does it not matter because they have the obligation, so they can take the risk?
4. The fact that women are not commanded to learn Gemara DOES NOT necessarily mean that it is not “their place” or that it is somehow a bad thing. The fact of the matter is, for most of history women were likely UNABLE to learn Gemara due to time constraints/limited education.
5. Many have said that we do not paskin from Gemara. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that it is the GEMARA that says that women should not learn Talmud. So according to this reasoning, that “issur” is not a psak.
6. Re: “learn what you need to learn first”: I highly doubt that the seven-year-old boys learning Mishna have learnt everything that they needed to learn already.
(Yes, yes, yes, I know, they have the obligation, they need to start acquiring the skills at an early age, etc. But still – no one seems to fear that learning Mishna will take diminish their opportunities to learn halacha too.)
7. Re: “women don’t have the background to study Gemara”: That’s right. Maybe we should change the education system so they can DEVELOP that background…?
I know that for myself personally, I would love to learn Gemara but I know that I don’t have the skills and that I don’t have enough time/commitment to acquire them at this time. Hopefully that will change. But I definitely wish that I could have developed the skills earlier in life…
8. Re: “It’s not the ideal”: Is it also not ideal for girls to be learning Tanach in school? Should we shake our heads and mourn the yeridat hadorot that so many girls are spending a year in seminary to learn rather than start looking for a shiduch as soon as they graduate high school?
9. Re: “MO women want to learn Gemara to prove they’re just as good as men” : I agree that perhaps many of us want to learn Gemara because we’re sick of being restricted from things that we want to do. Can you blame us? We’re no longer as restricted in the secular world of education and occupation. Yet our religious beliefs restricts us from becoming rabbis, from wearing pants, from singing/dancing in mixed company, from acting even if we’re talented, from receiving aliyot, from swimming at the beach, from public speaking in some communities…
Yes, there’s a reason for all those “restrictions.” But can you not understand that MO women who have had a “taste” of freedom may start resenting them?
You may argue that the solution is to take away ALL the freedom, so then women won’t know to be resentful anymore. Good luck with that.
10. Re: women learning Gemara for the wrong reasons: Maybe women who choose to sit in the sukkah, daven mincha, shake lulav and esrog, go to shul on Shabbos, etc., are all doing it for the wrong reasons and just want to prove their self-worth?
Wow that is a long and very interesting comment- thank you- I agree with #9- although I have wondered myself whether or not women can be Rabbis- I mean what the heck is a Rabbi anyway? A knowledgeable person who can dispense advice, make shul dinners and give a speech once in a while- seems that women may even be better Rabbis then men- I am sure that discussion can start a whole flurry.
*awaits for all hell to break loose*
Whenever people who are not religious ask me why women can’t be rabbis, I generally tell them they can: they’re just called a “rebbetzin” or “rabbanit,” and that it’s like acting how come a woman can’t be an actor vs. actress.
Arguably, a rabanit and rabbi is not the same thing, and admittedly I use that line to deflect controversey.
But it does make me wonder – can’t a rabanit do everything a rabbi does?
Is there an issur against women paskining? If that’s the case, every frum girls’ camp/school is in deep trouble for all the on-the-fly sha’alos going on.
You know what lets save the argument for the floor- I am kind of going through this writing struggle anyway, because for some reason I can’t think of anything funny to say- just serious stuff. Ill write up something later today.
Heimish – sorry it’s taken me some time to respond to your comment on my comment on your comment and so on ;o)
The age of when kids goes to school has to do with the fact that the mother is not a. too busy with the children to learn, b. instilling the children with a love for yiddishkeit and in other ways being the heart and soul of the home. The most formative years of a child’s life is the first three. It’s so important for them to be with their mothers. What it has to do with your comment is that you said that she is the one instilling in them the basics of ahavas and yiras hashem. In actuality, most orthodox mothers I know are leaving all of the “instilling” to the schools (which are failing miserably btw, but that’s a whole other story.)
My comment about supporting their husband’s learning “habit” was tongue in cheek. I know it doesn’t apply to every man out there, but there are learning men who aren’t really learning. They’re not cut out for it but they do it because it’s easy and it’s expected of them. Those men are not worthy of respect and their learning is just a bad “habit.” I didn’t mean it for anyone, I was kidding around and being sarcastic.
I understand the intention of your comment and the distinction between the roles of men and women, I was just trying to point out that it is rarely that way in Orthodox Jewish homes these days and since the women can and are expected to work and in that way take on a man’s responsibilities, it seems only fair she should be granted the ability to learn what she pleases in her spare time.
KISS ME:
“I highly doubt that the seven-year-old boys learning Mishna have learnt everything that they needed to learn already.”
they should not learn mishna till aged 10 and gemara at 15 (see pirke avot)
“I generally tell them they can: they’re just called a “rebbetzin” or “rabbanit,””
a rabbi (ideally) is a rabbi by nature of the fact that he commands a body of knowledge. the rebbetzin is a rebetzin by nature of the fact that she sleeps with a rabbi. that’s it.
it’s funny how women are given this title and then people consult them for advice even though they might be complete ignoramuses. on the other hand, it also sad that without being a rebbetzing one lacks the qualifications to give shiurim, etc. i was at a friend for lunch one shabbat and the wife asked a guest if she is going to the shiur by so-and-so. the guest responded, “oh, i didn’t know she was a rebbetzin.” she wasn’t a rebbetzin, as if the qualification for giving a shiur is that you sleep with a rabbi. (and of course most of these women’s shiurim are complete fluff andway and they don’t have much more content than a bas mitzva speech.)
HESH:
“although I have wondered myself whether or not women can be Rabbis”
there are women who are trained to serve as yo’atzot halakhah.
i must say that i am really not surprised that chabad teaches girls gemara, although i have never heard this before. this seems to fit in line with all the other anti-mesorah andanti- other gedolim theme they have decided to adopt. its really a shame that something like this cult is dominating the orthodox community and calls itself frum. i dont know how time and time again this happens and no one calls them out. not at least since rav shach ztl. they have constantly been against daas torah and accepted halacha/mesorah. how can this continue unnoticed. this is truly a plague and needs to be dealt with
Hehe. I’m reminded of the quote that the scholars of Yisrael are all kind to each other, but the scholars of Babylon were really mean.
It’s from Bavel that the law “No weapons in the house of study” came from, after all.
I will comment just to be number 100
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