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Philosophizing about orthodox women who wear pants

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I was at a crazy bonfire in Philly for Lag Baomer and out of nowhere an old friend of a friend noticed me and we got to chatting- I made note of her descent off the derech since the last time I saw her. I based my whole opinion of her based on the fact she was wearing pants and that the last time I saw her she was wearing skirts. I then gave her a speech of mussar no less frightening then the particulars of cleanliness chapter from the mesilas yeshurim- of note because I received the same speech upon being caught on my way back from an NCSY convention in high school. I reprimanded her for her foolishness because now her shidduch chances were shot and she would have to date within the caste system designed for girls who dare to wear pants- while still being just as frum or even more frum then their fellow skirt wearers, who may only be wearing skirts to stick with their perpetual state of “social orthodoxy”

Is it just me or has the skirt become a symbol of social orthodoxy? What I mean by this, is that I think that women wearing pants has been blown way out of proportion and find that it’s largely one of those antiquated gray areas of halacha that never actually caught up with modern society. Being a gray area that everyone likes to talk about- since the whole begged- Ish argument strikes me as a farse- and I think the people who make the argument realize this.

I understand the feelings toward pants, most pants are untznius, they reveal the butt in all its glory- but skirts are the same way in many instances, yet wearing a tight skirt is way better then wearing loose pants, at least for your social status within orthodoxy. In many circles a women can be perfectly frum, yet her pants wearing state causes people to call her modern- which no matter which way you swing it- means “lax in torah lifestyle”.

My friend from Philly is having a terrible time in the shidduch field, for not only does she wear pants, but she is one of the most frum girls I know. She davens every day, keeps 100% shomer negia and has for many years, learns every day and says tehilim and the whole nine yards, including things like after brachos and benching in pizza stores which is usually copped out by busting out the whole “snack” heter. Apparently shomer negia and pants don’t mix and this is an issue.

I have friends who will only date girls who wear skirts, yet these same kids may eat non-kosher and sleep with random girls. I know plenty of dudes like this- it’s a social thing. If your wife wears pants- people talk- they say “what happened your son was so religious after his year of brainwashing in Israel?”

All is not lost however, ideally a tznius skirt is the way to go- I just think that judging women purely based on the fact they wear pants is a little much. If they are wearing tight jeans, a tank top and fail to cover their hair its one thing- but for those women who wear pants and keep halacha- including the numerous who cover their hair (cant get around this one ladies- it’s a biblical commandment) it’s all about social orthodoxy in my mind.

Now I know the comments could get violent- lets try to keep it civil.

  • Richie Sevrinsky

    I could be going out on a limb here (no pun intended), but I firmly believe the association of skirt-wearing with religious observance to be an American social convention, and does not necessarily apply to Israeli Orthodox (non-Chareidi) circles.

    My wife had no set standard to follow, and we discussed whether she would continue to wear pants after we got married. She decided that it would look too weird (at least for our remaining time in the US before aliyah) to have her hair covered, but still wear pants. In her case, the social pressure was definitely a consideration.

  • TP

    Before all the marginally Orthodox start ranting, I just want to point out one thing: the Torah requires that we appoint a Rabbi for ourselves and follow that Rabbi’s modern day application of ancient laws. Now, while there are a handfull of Rabbis who are not opposed girls wearing pants, the majority of Rabbis, those that make legal rulings about 99% of the Laws we actually follow, are against pants. Just something to keep in mind. I do agree though that the importance of wearing skirts may be the result of social orthodxy.

  • urban gypsy

    Great post Hesh, an important issue to address!

    Firstly, I feel bad for your friend. You are correct that “apparently shomer negia and pants don’t mix” and it is unfortunate that people judge based on externals like that. But it’s impossible to know what people do every minute of every day, and I guess it’s natural to make use of a sort of cultural shorthand, pants mean one thing, skirts mean another. I wish everyone took the time to get to know people on a deeper level, but when it comes to somthing like shidduchim, say, often one must resort to trivialities.

    On the other hand, clothing represents the way you choose to present yourself to the world. You can be all like, “I refuse to be conventional, I will buck social norms” but nobody’s going to buy any of it. We all know what skirts are supposed to mean, and same goes for pants. By choosing to wear pants, it’s not simply a comfort or style issue, it’s also a personal statement.

    As for the reason of why skirts must be worn, I admit that the beged ish argument seems a little hollow to me as well. But it’s not the only reason. Lately I’ve been thinking that it may have something to do with conditioning kids to develop their gender identity. It’s too early for me to put together my coherent thoughts on this but I’ll write more later.

    For now I’ll just leave off by saying that I have been wearing only skirts for the past nine years, and while I sometimes absently miss the great feeling of jeans against my skin, I think the advantages of wearing a skirt outweigh the losses. It has to do with a kind of tzniut self-awareness, by which I mean that you can’t do everything in a skirt that you do in pants, you have to be careful of how you sit and stand and behave and it makes you more careful in your actions all the time. Second, it’s just easier for saying brachos, and let’s face it, we should be saying brachos practically all the time. I wear shorts around the house and I constantly have to run and put on a skirt when I want to eat something or to say asher yatzar or whatever. Thirdly, I think people relate to you differently as a woman and as a Jew. It’s hard to quantify but there is definately a sense of being taken more seriously and being treated with dignity and respect.

    Again, great post Hesh. It’s very cool of you to care about this, being a guy and all. I hope there’s a good discussion on this one and I plan to write more after I see what others have to say.

  • http://www.frumsatire.net heshman

    Great comments already- as to 99% of Rabbis ruling that pants should be worn- has this issue ever been discussed??? It seems that its one of those issues that just is- but is not actually discussed.

    In modern times- earlier part of last century it was ruled that men could daven in front of married women with uncovered hair- which is not allowed according to the gemara. It seems that someone could stand up for all of those that choose to be pious- yet want the freedom of pants- ever try sitting in the wind while wearing a skirt? its not too tznius to me. In fact I one time was walking up Rechov Shimon Hatzdik when two girls in front of me went into an involuntary Marilyn Monroe pose when their skirts flew up with a gust of wind- it was hilarious.

    I never even thought of the gender identity- what about the fact that in many skirt wearing communities women are told to be the breadwinners while the men sit and learn- that doesn’t sound like gender identity training to me.

  • urban gypsy

    You kill me Hesh! Excellent rebuttal regarding gender identity. That’s a headscratcher for sure.

    It just seemed to me to be a part of the obsessive gender identity conditioning that goes on for little frum girls. I think there’s a subtle (sometimes not so subtle) push for little girls toward braiding challahs and making jewelery that stays with them way into high school as they are encouraged to take it easy with the “hard” things like math and science, etc. etc. and skirts are a big part of the effort to make them very feminine and soft. I mean how many frum girls do you see wearing boxy khakhi cargo skirts with chains, leather biker jackets, and buzz cuts? It’s not just the skirt, it’s the whole girly twinset and pearls image that goes along with it, like a complete package.

    But you are bang-on correct with the women as breadwinners issue. That has always baffled me and I think it’s sort of sick and twisted. I mean if you’re going to give them a little bit of the whole feminist empowerment thing, why not let them have more? Why is that okay but not to let them learn gemarah? Maybe that could be the subject of a future post!

    But back to skirts…I have suffered the Marilyn Monroe problem many times on windy days. Maybe only long narrow Stevenson’s denim skirts should be allowed.

  • http://yehoshuasvertl.blogspot.com Shua

    Gypsy – great response, really well put. For good or for better, people have to make snap judgments when they first meet someone new, and clothing and outer appearance contribute a lot to that. And what everything means is determined by current societal trends – that’s just how it is. Maybe wide ties were in in the 80’s, but if I wear one today, you’re going to think I’m a dork. Ergo, I’m not going to wear one.

    Anyway, it’s not much of a halachic thing. Heck – pants are just as immodest for men as they are for women, we just got used to them by now. And most of us are used to pants on women too, unless you’ve never left the beis midrash for more than an hour. It’s more of a societal norm – “al tifrosh min hatzibur”.

    Thanks for ranting. Great for these things to be brought up.

  • FRANK

    Loose pants are for women with lousy legs

  • http://www.frumsatire.net heshman

    “Why is that okay but not to let them learn gemarah? Maybe that could be the subject of a future post!”

    Actually after this post I have something related to this.

    Shua said-
    “Anyway, it’s not much of a halachic thing. Heck – pants are just as immodest for men as they are for women, we just got used to them by now. And most of us are used to pants on women too, unless you’ve never left the beis midrash for more than an hour. It’s more of a societal norm – “al tifrosh min hatzibur”.”

    Well I think that if you asked any old dude from Boro Park or Lakewood they would respond that it is a halachic thing.

  • chanief

    I like the discussion going on here – it’s very interesting to me (a pants wearing woman in the holy community of Monsey… but then again I am only “marginally orthodox” LOL)

    I enjoyed the post, I think you’re spot on with just about everything except that covering a woman’s hair is a biblical commandment. How so?

  • http://yehoshuasvertl.blogspot.com Shua

    “I think that if you asked any old dude from Boro Park or Lakewood they would respond that it is a halachic thing.”

    Sure, but that doesn’t make it one.

    Chanie – see Numbers 5:18 and Rashi there.

  • http://collectivisticindividualism.blogspot.com Child Ish Behavior

    It all boils down to one thing. Somewhere in the Torah it says to listen to the Rabunim; and somewhere else it says don’t where the garments of the opposite gender. Even if you might think that in this day and age pants is not a garment that has been made specifically for men, still the same rabunim that say what is kosher are telling you that they consider pants to still be in the realm of the all mens clothing stores( though many pants are made exclusively for women)

    People who decide for themselves that they feel that pants are no longer a beged ish invariably are doing it for some underling reason. They most definitely are not saying to themselves that the tight fitting pants feel so much better than a loose skirt. They want to make a social statement against the social statement of what is considered normal for a person who considers themselves orthodox to be.

    That being said I wrote a whole article on how when I saw someone who was wearing pants my first reaction was,”When does the nose ring and tramp stamp go on”?

    Check it out”
    http://collectivisticindividualism.blogspot.com/2008/05/where-has-hope-gone.html

  • http://www.frumsatire.net heshman

    “People who decide for themselves that they feel that pants are no longer a beged ish invariably are doing it for some underling reason.”

    What is the underlying reason for a women wearing pants- is it the comfort, the ability to blend in like those men that decide to wear baseball hats instead of yarmulkes- how about the ability to run, bike ride or ski in safety. Also some people just dont like the exposure to the elements. Skirts are harder to sit around in and be tznius- always mindful of people getting a peek of your panties.

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    ” I wrote a whole article on how when I saw someone who was wearing pants my first reaction was,”When does the nose ring and tramp stamp go on”?Check it out””

    Ish, please tell me you’re kidding. As for the youth, I have no idea how to deal with the teen in my life’s behavior; I would have her tuchus in a boot camp-type summer program, this summer, if it were up to me. I remember not liking my parents’ authority, but I never was so brazen.

    chanief, Monsey needs more pants-wearing women. Thank you.

    As for me, yeah, it’s total social orthodoxy, and it’s total BS. That doesn’t mean I haven’t started keeping a skirt in the car with me for quick changes. Me, I’m not super-tall, so mid-length skirts tend to fall closer to my ankles, and the dudes think I’m super-frum (which is hilarious), or something. A conversation with me takes care of that.

    As for asher yatzar and making a bracha, I don’t believe I need to put on a skirt (as opposed to pants) to say a bracha (but if you feel that way, good for you, and rock your skirts till the cows come home, just don’t tell me what to wear in the shul that doubles as my apartment).

  • http://www.frumsatire.net heshman

    “just don’t tell me what to wear in the shul that doubles as my apartment”

    You know that you can save on property taxes by putting a shul in your basement?

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    “the comfort, the ability to run, bike ride or ski in safety. Also some people just dont like the exposure to the elements. Skirts are harder to sit around in and be tznius- always mindful of people getting a peek of your panties.”

    bingo — trust me, or try wearing a kilt, they have some nice ones at utilikilts.com; bingo — how the heck do you do fun outdoors things in a skirt like ride a bike?; absofreakinlutely! (drafts suck!).

    There is far too much good that needs to be done in this world for me to have to spend time thinking about how I sit. Tznius has a lot more to do with what’s inside (the heart and mind) than what you wear (which is often a reflection of what’s going on in the interior).

    It’s social ick which one wouldn’t think would exist for women in orthodox Judaism, as they already have so many important responsibilities (home, education, family [and let’s not forget supporting the husbands who sit and learn all day]). And because I don’t live in a cave by myself, I now have a skirt in my car for moments when I interact with those who can’t see past one. I try to keep them as few as possible, shabbat notwithstanding.

  • http://collectivisticindividualism.blogspot.com Child Ish Behavior

    “What is the underlying reason for a women wearing pants”
    Whatever the reason is, i guarantee you it isn’t for the sake of heaven. People that wear pants are not saying to themselves, “I think this is really what God wants.”
    S(b.)- yep those were the exact thoughts that were going through my head as I watched her, in pants, smoke a cigarette, with that depressed look in her eyes.

  • Ari

    Apologize for continuing the tangent regarding head coverings, but the word “parah” in Numbers 5:18 can also be be interpreted as “loosening”a woman’s hair. not “uncovering.”

    (This is in reference to the sota process the kohen would use to determine whether a woman had committed adultery.)

    The Mishna Sota, Sifrei, Talmud Sota, and some of the Tosephta support the translation as loosening, not covering.

    It’s also interesting to note that women head coverings were customary among Muslim and Christian women (Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot Ishut 24:12).

    Presumably, Jewish women would want to distinguish themselves from non Jewish women?

    Further evidence that head covering is not a mitzvah stems from the fact that it is not one of the 613 mitzvahs.

    Now, it might be the accepted practice among the frum to cover one’s hair, but consider also that a fancy sheitel negates most of the public benefits of head coverings . . . and that shaving one’s head — the practice among Satmar women — is uncomfortably reminscent of the practice of making a captive non Jewish woman unattractive to a prospective Jewish husband.

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    “You know that you can save on property taxes by putting a shul in your basement?”
    Halevai! Fon dein moyl tzu Got’s oyren. lol Owning land is such an abstract concept, anyway.

  • Moish

    It’s funny what you think is contraversial…. Geez I was expecting something far more crazy. To be honest i’m a little dissappointed. What’s the chidush here? I’m just curious. How long have you considered yourself ‘modern orthodox’? I mean to most of us MO’s this stuff is self evident from the early days of highschool

  • http://www.frumsatire.net heshman

    Moish- this is really not controversial at all- that facebook status just gets people to come read it- it grabbed your attention.

    I have never considered myself modern orthodox- I go with the Jewish label. Maybe “neo chassid” I like that one.

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    Child Ish Behavior // May 27, 2008 at 10:01 am
    “What is the underlying reason for a women wearing pants”
    Whatever the reason is, i guarantee you it isn’t for the sake of heaven. People that wear pants are not saying to themselves, “I think this is really what God wants.”

    –Actually, it is for the sake of heaven (in addition to comfort and all those other things). You have your relationship with Hashem; I have mine. Hashem and I, we’re like this :holding up index and middle finger directly next to each other:. And my end of our deal is to make sure I’m wearing something comfortable that will allow me to focus on the tasks at hand, so I can dedicate more time to making the world a better place. When I must minister to the blind (so to speak, and I’m using those terms VERY LOOSELY here), yeah, I’ll put on a skirt, but most of my work is with folks who aren’t even on the radar of those who think wearing a skirt is a social or theological necessity.

    (and I tend to like your comments and I enjoy your blog, I just disagree with you vehemently on this particular issue)

    “S(b.)- yep those were the exact thoughts that were going through my head as I watched her, in pants, smoke a cigarette, with that depressed look in her eyes.”

    –I’m being facetious, here. Oh, you’re right. Pants are a gateway drug!!
    –Seriously, I’m sorry that you weren’t thinking of asking her how she was doing, or taking action to help her have a positive Jewish experience, or a positive interaction in what could have otherwise been, based on your description of the look in her eyes, a depressing day, for her.

    No, you were too busy thinking the worst, wondering when she’d get a nose ring and a tattoo. Please stay on your knowing what people do for the sake of heaven horse and leave the real work to me and my pants and people like Reb Shlomo (z”l) and Chabad and the handful of rabbonim I’ve been fortunate enough to know who had the wisdom to leave an open door, who said, “Just come; don’t worry about what you’re wearing.”

    I may not have the answer, but I’m not going to stop looking for it, and I’m not going to stop reaching out and trying to be a positive in the life of a person I can reach, regardless of what anyone is wearing. But that’s me.

  • http://www.susqhb.blogspot.com Susanne G

    In the course of my growth in the world of Baal Teshuva I always snickered at the possibility that I might one day give up wearing my favorite GAP jeans. And at 28 and engaged to a YU rabbi that is perfectly okay with my jeans cements my theory that all pants all the time ain’t ever happening in my life. I can be frum and still wear pants. You know why? Cuz I stopped giving a crap about what other people thought. The hypocracy of the people that criticize pants wearers (while they sit in a corner booth at McDonalds) makes me nuts. Another good thought provoking post from Frum Satire!

  • Anon

    If the MO would act as tzniusdik as you are all pretending pants somehow are, (basically ignoring the Shulchan Aruch and all but the most renegade rabbonim), Klal Yisroel would be far better off.

  • Homeschool Mom

    Had to comment on this. My Christian religion is very right wing and we follow the Torah with the exception of the laws that are mentioned in the New Testament as having been cleansed, and a few that are first brought up in the NT such as women not cutting their hair (I Corinthians 11). Sometimes the younger girls dress like your Hot Chanies, but definitely, wearing pants is like the last straw of leaving the church.

  • http://jewishmuzic.blogspot.com Jewish Blogmeister

    Great post! I absolutely love the comments…
    Playing devil’s advocate here. You could say that although it is in style for women to wear pants more today than 30 years ago, there are more men wearing pants than women. If for no other reason than they have no other mode of dress ( their all the same let’s dress them the same). Even if that hypothesis is wrong and certainly in religious sephardic circles women wore loose pants back in the day ( arab countries still do etc)
    it is no longer considered tzinius by most orthodox religious circles. If you are to visit or live in those neighborhoods where it would be provocative or inappropriate to wear pants, you may want to consider following the customs of that place.

  • urban gypsy

    s(b.):

    Please don’t be offended, and please don’t think that I’m telling you what to wear, but I think it’s interesting that you feel the need to change into a skirt for certain people but don’t feel the need to put on a skirt to pray to G-d.

    Ari:

    Whose count of 613 are you using when you say that covering your hair is not one of them?

    Also, don’t forget that Judiasm came about before Islam and Christianity! Just because Muslims practice circumcision and Christians read the Old Testament, should we stop those too? Hair coverings for women are common in many religious cultures, which to me is further evidence that it is not BS but has a real genuine meaning involving modesty and respect.

  • http://www.frumsatire.net heshman

    I am all for following laws of place and agree- if the laws are beyond your ability I would suggest not living in that place. Such as living in Lakewood yet wearing pants would be completely inappropriate.

    I do think however that this post was written from the ideas someone in the shidduch world- one that is ridden with hypocrisy and in which they think there is a crisis- yet there is this mantra of guys not dating girls who wear pants- even if they are lax in other important areas of halacha- for instance how many girls do you know that daven at least once a day like they are supposed to?

  • http://yehoshuasvertl.blogspot.com Shua

    “basically ignoring the Shulchan Aruch”

    Do you have a source for this? Unfortunately I’m at work and don’t have access to a Mishnah Berurah here. The laws are brought down in Hilchos Krias Shma somewhere. As I recall, there are some unchangeable laws, and some which are based on local custom.

    As I mentioned, there have been times and places in history when it was considered immodest for men to wear pants as well. In the times of the Gemara, all men wore long robes and tunics, as evidenced by many of the laws regarding uncovering oneself in the bathroom. Nowadays, men may wear pants as this has become a societal norm. Again, I’ll post sources when I get home.

    If I’m right on this, then we see pants are subject to societal norms as well, which means that in modern Western society, where most women wear pants, the question of whether or not Jewish women should wear them becomes one not of halacha per se, but custom and tradition – perhaps significant but belonging to a different category.

  • urban gypsy

    Hesh is right. I think when it comes to shidduchim people have their priorities all out of whack. I say focus on the actual mitzvahs first: as in, prayer, keeping shabbat, keeping kosher, for starters. While wearing skirts is important, I completely and totally agree that davening every day is more important. I truly do sympathize with your friend, she sounds like an amazing girl and it’s sad that many guys would be too blind to see it.

  • Rafi

    covering hair is in no1’s 613 mitzvah count…but beged ish is…

    I asked my rebbi this question once (i would label him yeshivish but emesdik). He told me that tznius pants are officially muttar. But since the orthodox world sees them as a negative thing, and are not accepted into the frum communities, they should not be worn. He ended with “You cant change the world” .

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    urban gypsy, it’s all good. G-d doesn’t judge me based on what I wear; people sometimes do. (I had written a longer response, but wordpress seems to have had its way with it.)

  • http://jewishmuzic.blogspot.com Jewish Blogmeister

    Great stuff everybody! If you have not read it you must read my interview with Hesh of Frum Satire, it is not to be missed!

  • Michael

    I’ve always wondered why my wife feels compelled to cover her hair before lighting Shabbos candles, even though it’s just the two of us in the house. Is it like wearing a kippah? Do other women do this?

  • chanief

    Shua, re Numbers 5:18… yes, the good old Isha Sotah argument. Well, as far as that one goes, and it’s relevance to covering one’s hair in today’s world, men all wore dresses then. I’m not being a wiseguy or girl here, I’m serious. That does not make the extrapolated commandment to cover ones hair Torah Misinai. (Not to mention the dispute over whether it means uncover or loosen her hair.)

    ITA with those who acknowledge the pants issue as social Orthodoxy, but disagree with those who think wearing pants is ONLY a way to make a statement. It’s a statement as much as anyone ever does is a statement, but not all women in pants are trying to make a specifically rebellious statement.

    I for one am making the statement that I am more comfortable in pants and since I have yet to be convinced that G-d cares about skirts vs pants, I prefer to be comfortable.

    Child Ish – Interesting post you linked to. You made me realize what I am missing in life – a tramp stamp! After all, I have the pants and the nose ring, so it’s the next logical step, right? I do sincerely feel for young girls who feel the pain you wrote of, but don’t make assumptions about people based on the way they look, it’s not becoming.

    I do sort of understand that the pants thing can be a barrier for shidduchim, simply because most people cannot look past the external to see what a person is really like. I feel for your friend and I hope she finds someone special soon.

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    Michael, I think it’s an if you’re married and lighting candles thing (as in, I don’t cover my head; my mom’s not married, she doesn’t cover her head; my bub’s a widow, she covers her head).

    Chanief, shidduchim is the primary reason I’m running around with a skirt in my car. (plth!) And, you know, minyanim on the fly. :)

  • chanief

    s(b) I keep an “emergency” skirt in my car too, despite being married for almost ten years ;o) I use it, out of respect, if I happen to go to my parents house for an extended amount of time. It’s purely a respect thing though because they are well aware of my pants wearing ways…

  • http://www.frumsatire.net heshman

    I keep an emergency pair of pants in my car for all those shuls that don’t like me coming in shorts.

  • Anonymous

    I agree with pants vs. skirts being a social Orthodoxy thing. When I started wearing pants again after 9 years of only skirts, I had NO idea the can of worms I was opening. The pants have have really changed the way people treat me. I don’t ‘look the part’ anymore and we Jews have a bad habit of putting each other into little boxes. My kids and I receive fewer invitations for meals on shabbat. Some people no longer greet me. No one tries to set me up. Never mind that I am publicly more engaged in learning and attending shiurim than I have ever been in the past. I guess I now know who my real friends are.

  • urban gypsy

    I am genuinely curious as to the reasoning for people who choose to switch to pants after wearing skirts for a long time. I understand the issue of comfort, etc. but I’m sure it wasn’t a decision you took lightly. Can you please share some of your reasons and impressions that came with making the change?

  • Moish

    Hey Hesh i don’t get. I distinctly remember in one of your vids you said you were’modern orthodox’ . And you even pointed to your suede kippa to prove it. Ok so labels don’t work or you. In that case pick something and and stick with it

  • http://jewishmuzic.blogspot.com Jewish Blogmeister

    I for one never found a skirt comfortable at all I only wear pants so I understand the issue well.
    Hesh do you really keep another pair of pants in your car? That is so frummy of you, next thing you’ll tell me is you have a gartel and a fake pair of payis and beard in case you end up in new square

  • http://www.frumsatire.net heshman

    Ok Moish- first of all- I am sure you understood that I was screwing around- I don’t think modern orthodoxy is all about suede yarmulkes- but ideally most people would consider me modern orthodox- with a sprinkling of chabad. I myself rather “just Jewish” or “neo chassidic” but if I had to choose I would say “out of the box” – I think it may be time for another updated post on labeling people- because everyone is in doubt about how to label themselves.

    J-blogmeister- I will be linking to you within the next few days- as for the pants- I was reprimanded once for wearing my biker spandex to shul and decided to carry a pair of pants in my car- if you saw my car you would understand its nothing- I have a stove, tent and sleeping bag in my car as well.

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    “In that case pick something and and stick with it” -Moish

    What if he wants to become more observant? Please don’t ask anyone to not let themselves grow (or evolve in any direction). That’s like putting a straightjacket on a Tigger. Labels don’t work for me, either. Jewish is label enough, isn’t it?

    Anonymous, I’m sorry. I remember when my sister was younger, house policy re: when I was welcome to come over changing so that she wouldn’t be deprived of local social opportunities. While I didn’t agree with it, I respected it, for her sake. The house also went cholov yisrael, for the same reason. I get it.

    hesh, it would’ve been funnier if you said emergency skirt. (I know, I know; sorry)

    urban gypsy, I left yeshiva after 2nd grade, ditched the skirts then and didn’t look back ’cause I didn’t like HAVING to wear them. When I got older, it became a matter of draft avoidance, comfort, physical activities, etc. Now, it’s very annoying, but I can see how knowing that someone can and is willing to play the (social) game, in context, is a desirable quality in a potential partner. Fortunately, most guys I meet don’t care whether or not I wear skirts outside of shul, etc.

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    Biker spandex on a guy is totally a distraction. I would want a giant mechitza made of bulletproof stockings if I were davening near guys in bike shorts. With small windows for air circulation, but above or well below my line of sight, for sure.

  • Anonymous

    Urban Gypsy,

    I wrote out a my personal reasons for going back to pants, but wordpress didn’t let me post. Weird, I didn’t write anything inappropriate!

  • urban gypsy

    dear s(b.), for one hilarious moment i thought that your decision to stop wearing skirts in 2nd grade had something to do with avoiding army duty. now i get it, draft avoidance!

    interesting experiences regarding your sister and yourself, thank you for sharing. i bet you’re an awesome sister, not many people would be willing to sacrifice one iota for a sibling’s benefit in this regard. i am impressed with you, with hesh, and others who mentioned they are willing to show respect in their dress for the benefit of others, even if you don’t agree with them.

  • urban gypsy

    anon, please try again. sometimes comments don’t go through, its not the content.

  • http://www.frumsatire.net heshman

    Thank you Urban- Anon I do not moderate comments unless they have links in them- or they talk in detail about “two girls one cup” style situations.

    WordPress is weird like that- be patient- this morning someone couldn’t post one so they emailed it to me. frumsatire@gmail.com

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    It was very easy. I wasn’t living there; she was (as were her parents). It’s their nuclear family and neighborhood to deal with, not mine. That’s not to say I agreed with it, but she shouldn’t have to suffer with social BS related to a less-observant sibling. There’s enough social whatever for those who do everything “right.” Growing up is hard enough as it is, you know? Now that she’s not going to the local school, playing with the kids on the block, policy has relaxed closer to how it was before she started school.

  • urban gypsy

    s(b.), you may say it was easy, but it still demonstrates a lot of caring on your part. i say this as someone who grew up suffering from much social BS from a less-observant sibling who didn’t care. that is putting it very mildly. i think that while religion is a personal matter to a large extent, choosing to demonstrate respect for others gets a big gold star in my book. so, again, you are awesome!

  • Anonymous

    Let’s try this again…my first post was written much better, but here goes…

    I think that for me going back to wearing pants is part of a larger movement in my life towards making my inner and outer self more in sync. I have been trying to define my own hashgafa and then be true to it. 9 years ago when I stopped wearing pants, I think I did it largely because of social pressure. I was young, and new BTs can be very easily influenced. I may go back to only wearing skirts again someday, but I need to do it on my own terms, if and when I truly feel it is what I need to do in order to be shomer mitzvot.

    I would also be lying if I said there wasn’t a statement imbedded in my actions too. Since I became observant, the community I live in has moved from middle of the road to very right-wing. To me, a lot of it seems like social Orthodoxy. People who were new BTs just a few years ago, are taking on cholov yisrael and yoshon. I see women going from pants to tights and sheitels in just a few months. In order to be accepted here socially, that is what you do. Personally, I have traveled the opposite path. I’ve been observant for 10 years now, and I have grown-up a lot and just don’t care what people think all that much. I feel like I owe it to my kids to teach them to think critically and understand why we do the things we do – because the Rav says so is not a good enough answer

  • Anonymous

    Hesh, ‘two girls one cup situations’? Do I even want to know what that is?

  • chanief

    Kudos to you Anonymous, being true to yourself is so important for both your happiness and in raising children who think for themselves. My hat is off to you, it’s not easy in an ultra orthodox community. I assume you send your children to a yeshiva, have you experienced any negative reaction there?

  • urban gypsy

    Thank you so much for retyping, anon. That is the most genuine and eloquent reason I have ever heard for going back to wearing pants. Many times I feel like my inner and outer selves are out of sync and it’s painful. I wish I could find a way to reconcile them while not being ostracized by my community. I appreciate your sharing these experiences with us.

  • chanief

    Anonymous, no. consider yourself lucky that you don’t know what it is because once you do, you can NOT unknow it.

  • SUPERFRUM

    I’m going to start wearing pants when I’m out of my social orbit, simply because I am tired of giving people free-shows when I sit on the steps, or canoe, or bicycle, etc.

  • Anonymous

    chanief, my kids go to a preschool-8th grade Orthodox school. (There is only one school in my area!) The reactions there have been mixed. Some people no longer greet me when I drop off the kids in the morning. But others have been supportive or at least tolerant.

    My kids themselves are still really little and I am trying to use it as a teaching opportunity. When my older child told me that mommy’s are supposed to wear skirts and asked me if I was still Jewish, I used it as a chance to talk to him about there being different ways to be religious.

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    chanief, anonymous, urban gypsy, can we all play in Monsey some time? (or Highland Park, Princeton, Long Island, um … )

    urban gypsy, there’s more to that which I’d be glad to discuss off-blog; feel free to send gmail to sarahbtsd, if you’re interested.

    Anonymous, re: 2girls, 1cup; please trust chanief on this one. (if you’re still curious, think of a bad diaper change and add two girls, then trust chanief.)

  • http://ketchupandicecream.blogspot.com/2006/03/so-ive-been-getting-bugged-for-while.html Xvi

    This ties in very nicely to a paper Id written some time ago for college, and then passed off as a blog post when I was still doing that. The gist was that since the mass migration of Jews to America, the face of Judaism has changed drastically. The key point to consider is the Judeo-Christian backbone of the USA and how it has directly led to assimilation. This basically directly fed what we see today as the “outfrumming” movement where people compete with their neighbors to see who can make up bigger chumras. The example I used in my paper was the Black Hat but the skirt works in a similar ‘fashion.’

    As much as we would like to be objective and couch the discussion as one of halacha, its not about that anymore. For a super-machmir society to exist, it must be under complete rabbinical supervision. That said, one major component of groupthink is the uniform. Ashrams, private schools and prisons know it and Rabbis know it too. As much as we would like to ignore the fact, a major part of being ultra-O is conformity. Its necessary for a controlled environment. Like the Black Hat, the skirt is part of the Orthodox uniform. For that reason, the discussion of pants and halacha will never really take place in an accepted format.

    I know this probably sounds very conspiratorial but I just like to write that way. From the Rabbinical perspective assimilation/modernization is a very real threat and this is one of the ways that they feel that they can stem the tide.

    If you want to read my original post, as adapted from my paper check it out HERE. Bear in mind, I wrote it a while ago and I dont know if I still stand by it. Comments made there will likely go unnoticed. And sorry… couldnt figure out how to hyperlink.

  • heimish in bp

    I just want to makes something clear here, which i think is a misunderstanding.

    Wearing pants is not really a social obligation, rather a Halachic obligation. You can however rationalize it how you want, like shomer negia, twist adn turn it, untill it fits with “YOUR” connection to hashem, whatever that’s supposed to mean.

    it says very clearly, “lo silbash isha cley gever”

    there is a machlokes Rishonim if it means, mens clothing, or war gear, like swords or spears.

    And that machlokes has trickled down all eh way to modern day achronim, who discuss if it is permissible to wear pants when skiing.

    And there are those who allow in such situations. But to claim its all about social norms, is just mis-informed. I will get some more marre mekomes, when i get home.

  • Anonymous

    heimish…I think what people mean about not wearing pants being ‘social Orthodoxy’ or ‘social norms’, is that many women are wearing skirts because they would not be socially accepted otherwise, rather than because they have actually studied textual sources and embrace wearing skirts as halacha.

  • anon

    heimish – it is not as halachically clear cut as you want to make it. according to those poskim who say pants are beged ish – then this would even apply to pajama pants. gimme a break. NO ONE here is following the opinion that pajama pants are assur for women. There are many poskim who hold that pants are not a beged ish issue rather a generic “lack of tzniut”. Thus according to some poskim (granted they are a minority and mostly in Israel) loose pants are mutar. Which would bring this whole discussion back to social norms.

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    “rather than because they have actually studied textual sources and embrace wearing skirts as halacha.” -Anonymous

    tongue in cheek: which is why women shouldn’t study gemara! :bimah klop:

    Seriously, thanks for weighing in, heimish. Whether or not I wear skirts in my own life or agree with something, it’s always interesting to learn textual bases for contemporary what it is. Better to make an educated decision to do or do not, I figure.

  • chanief

    s(b) anytime. Oh and as far as the two cups, one girl thing, Thankfully I didn’t watch the thing, but just hearing about it was bad enough…

  • heimish in bp

    Anon II, I never said its clear cut, if anything that was the exact point of my comment, that ther it is a major discussion, about it, and dotn just pin it on Social Orthodoxy. In my view, its more ” i am doing whati feel comfortable”, which i do to, but i dont pin it on halacha.

    i happen ot have just heard a phenominal tape from rabbi Frand, who is pretty left wing, on this whole subject, and he had a pretty hard time eaking out a heter to wear pants for skiing, it was a Mochlokes, i think, Rav Moshe, and Dayan Weiss, Minchas Yitzchok.

    And dont get me wrong, in reality, the tight short skirts the Hot Chanies, wear are way more provocative then a pair of dress slacks, But a women wearing pants has much more to do then just modern rabinical bans, as dinking water in the metro ny area, or the wigs being avoida zara.

    It actually has some relation to the actual original 613, thats my point.

  • ZK

    These comments are infuriating.

    heimish in bp – Perhaps women shouldn’t wear underwear either – afterall…men wear it!
    The arguement of it being mens clothing is so old and disproven…you need to get some new ones.

    Women can’t wear pants these days because all the ppl making these decisions are men. And they don’t have to walk around in a skirt that flies up…or bike around with a skirt….or play basketball in a skirt!
    I’m sure as soon as they tried that they would reconsider.

    I wear pants on occassion now – mostly because I prefer how I look in a skirt.
    However, I’ll wear pants or “shorts” (they come to my knees…basketball shorts) for bicycle riding, sports etc. Without any hesitation.

    Back in the day when I walked around with my elbows covered and skirts at that akward mid-calf length. I was a lot LESS religous than I am now!
    How sad it is when we base what we observe off of what our neighbors will think.
    As I was always taught…Sinning in the privacy of your own home – hiding it from your neighbors is worse than doing it in public. Because doing it in private shows that you are more scared of what your neighbors think than of what God thinks.
    We all have to get over what other ppl. think….I know that it’s a hard thing to do but seriously…we all need to get minds of our own, and stop looking at our neighbors for approval!

  • heimish in bp

    ZK, I dont know your level of observance, and its irrelivent. However, from your post it appears you dress in a certain manner that is not acceptable accordign to halacha. I said “halacha” not social norms. So if you pick and choose what halacha you want to keep, that is fine, justify it as being a male donimated religion all you want, but the fact is you are disregarding the halacha.

    And throughout our long and twisted history, from Moses, untill now, it was the male population that had a monopoly on the torah and all its halacha, so any halacha from women going to mikveh, to not being m’chuive in Mitzvas Asey She’haman G’rama, was all “fabricated” by men. SO pick and choose as much as you want. But admit it.

  • cee

    I wore skirts my entire life, on very cold days I wore skirts with thick tights in hot hot summer says I wore skirts with stockings. I never wore shorts at home or sweats it was not right. G-d can see me everywhere. Then I had a stroke at twenty I became an undesireable female it did not matter that I followed all the laws. So I said enough I will live life according to my heart.,

  • ZK

    heimish in bp, I am waiting for you to show me where it says a woman cannot wear pants. This is the issue that is being debated now….Please don’t regurgitate what you’ve been told all your life – that pants are a mans clothing and as such impermissible, as we have already disproven this.
    Come up with something new and i’m willing to listen….

  • heimish in bp

    ZK, stay tuned, I am at work now, and dont have anything at hand, but as soon as i get it all together, i wil post them, and they are many.

  • ZK

    Excellent heimish. Do your homework. don’t bring back rubbish like beged ish.

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    cee, I’m so sorry.
    I threw an interesting link up on my blog (links have to wait for moderation on here), if anyone feels like checking it out.

  • Dude!

    Heimish, I stand with you! I agree and i think everyone else who is pro woman wearing pants has a problem with jewish authority and will go against anything and everything that is for the sake of being jewish/frum and not left wing. You might call us “frummies” close minded, but i say you MOs are way too open minded that your brains fell out. Being jewish and frum does not mean finding every little loop hole imaginable so that you can be the least jewish possible with out burning in hell for all eternity. It means doing what Hashem wants for the sake of Hashem and not “just as long as its not a di’oraysa”. Chachamim made these laws for a reason, you can call them close minded or old fashioned but being jewish is not about being in style. The gedolim are smarter then anyone on this here blog and the fact that you question them for the sake of questioning and not to learn from and strive to become better shows what an apikores mind you all have.
    If the chachamim made this law and pple have kept to it for thousands of years, chances are-they are correct.
    And the issue with the girl who davens everyday, says tehilim, and is the frumest girl you have ever met…thats sounds like an oxymoron to me. One of the fundamental laws for a woman is keeping tznius. Why would she keep everything else but that? its seems moronic. I mean if she is a struggling BT and she is trying to do everything and she is not all the way there yet because keeping tznius is hard, i get that. But if that is her way of life and does not plan on changing-whats the point. Jeans are not tznius. Maybe the baggy ones that muslims wear are not that bad, but i highly doubt she wears one of those. A person can learn day and night but if they dont apply what they learn to their everyday lives then everything else is meaningless and worthless. And if you dont strive to become the best yid you possibly can, and refuse to keep one thing that happens to be one of a woman’s mitzvos, then that is plain old stupid and very low!
    And the statement of “woman should not wear underwear because men do” is one of the stupid most immature thing i have ever heard. Grow up, go learn some torah and come back when your brain has consumed a little bit of rationality and sanity!!

    Hesh, congrats on the popular post. Now that you have more readers, i wonder if its going to surpass the shomer negia post! (still my favorite)

  • http://www.hadassahsabo.wordpress.com Hadassah

    i just posted on my blog an essay on hair covering and modesty and many of the points i raised have been raised in your blog and the comments. many times a minhag becomes seen as a din because everyone has been doing it for ever, and no one wants to make a stand.

    Hesh – what are your thoughts on the expensive wigs the ortho community women are wearing these days, the so called Hot Chanies. who is more tznius – a woman in loose jeans, with a bandanna on her hair, OR a woman with a custom shietel, a skirt that covers her knees, barely, but obviously displays her rear end, and a form fitting shirt that definitely covers her elbows and collarbone. Many ppl would say that the skirt wearer is more modest – b/c she is more easily identifiable as “religious”. I disagree.

  • chanief

    Dude! Ignorant and judgemental much? Oh to live in your world where everything is just black and white.

    You know what I thank god for every day? I thank him that I am not an ignorant, unthinking lemming. I thank him that I have both the wisdom and courage to seek my own path to spirituality, challenge the patently ridiculous answers some have to my questions, and live my own life the way I see fit.

    You should come join my world, it’s colorful here on the dark side (and we have cookies!!)

  • http://yehoshuasvertl.blogspot.com Shua

    Heimish – what about pants designed specifically for women? Would you allow men to wear them (are they “men’s clothing”)? Please don’t bring proofs from people of different generations. In our generation, the majority of women wear pants. As noted above and as can be found by doing a quick Google search for “history of pants,” pants became popular for men in the 1500’s. They’re “men’s clothing” only due to cultural norms, which are of course subject to change.

    Anyway, this conversation is awesome. I think I’m going to wear a skirt to work tomorrow to show my solidarity. Hey men wear skirts in Scotland – it’s not Beged Ishah!!

    (Hot) Chanie – devil’s food cookies, right? ;)

  • http://www.frumfemale.blogspot.com frum single female

    where i grew up out of town only a few orthodox women wore skirts only. as i got older more women stopped wearing pants. once i moved to the ny area i stopped wearing pants because of social orthodoxy.
    and a fun fact- when my mom was growing up in the late fifties/early sixties, boys werent allowed to wear jeans to public schools because it was considered too revealing. girls on the other hand were allowed to wear jeans to school.

  • Dude!

    Its funny how pple can make fun/mock/condemn and poke the frummies but as soon as as one of us has the guts to disagree with the not so frummies as it were-the “judgmental” card is immediately drawn. You know its not an excuse. Yes, i am judging you and you are judging me. its the way of life. Dont tell me that you dont judge pple because that is a load of crap. Thats what happens when someone is rebuked for doing or saying something that is not the right wing correct way-all of a sudden they are being judgmental and ignorant. Man, if you take a look into my world you would see that trying to make things as black and white as possible while being happy about it and not complaining on how hard it is to be jewish, you’d see its a lot more brighter and HAPPIER then your world!!! Yes, that is the key word here! Better person=happiness!

  • Anonymous

    I wear pants as well as skirts and I used to keep an emergency skirt in the car for certain situations but the hole argument of not wearing skirts because its more confortable to do certain activities in pants isnt that compelling. I dont wear only skirts just because Im not at that point you but I hope to be eventually. As for cycling, hiking and windy days, why not just wear leggings under your skirt?

  • Anonymous

    I wear pants as well as skirts and I used to keep an emergency skirt in the car for certain situations too, but the whole argument of not wearing skirts because its more confortable to do certain activities in pants isn’t that compelling. Pants may be more comfortable but leggings under the skirt are a very feasible option for cycling, hiking or windy weather. I dont wear only skirts just because Im not at that point you but I hope to be eventually.

  • chanief

    Ok Dude! I do not make fun of/ mock/condemn or poke “frummies.” I do however, call someone ignorant and judgmental when they’ve opened their mouth* and proven themselves so.

    Do you know my world? Aside from what I’ve told you how could you possibly know that your world is happier than mine – happiness being a completely subjective emotion! You would not be happy living in my world, and I certainly would not be in yours.

    I do not judge you for being frum, I judge you for being ignorant and making blanket condemnations on anyone who dares to see Judaism in a different light than yours.

    We do agree on one thing -> Better person = happiness. Keeping in mind that there is no one right way to being a better person and therefore no one right way to happiness, I respect your right to be a better person and seek your happiness, do you respect mine?

    (*or pecked a message out on a keyboard, whatever applies)

    Shua – Devil’s food cookies for sure, but we have all varieties – they’re warm too!

  • Rivka

    A girls skirt should be like a Rabbis Speech:Long enough to cover the basics but short enough to keep you interested.

  • Dude!

    I am not judging you on what level you are on, im judging you on the fact that you are ignorant to the chareidi world and to the reasons behind the things that we do and believe in. I know my way of life is happier then yours because I am doing what is “better”. Yes better! If you ask a gadol hador what is considered the torah way, they will say that wearing a skirt is more right winged. Now if you go against what the rav says, well then that is a whole nother ball game. Besides for the fact that it does not take a genius or in this case a gadol to know what is considered the better way. So again, better=happiness. The torah=happiness. Mitzvos=happiness. Hashem=happiness. I dont know if I can make myself any clearer!
    Oh, and the saying goes-“come to the dark side, we have cookies!” A little ironic on your end eh!!

  • utubefan

    Rivka, you rock. Dude, it’s the Halacha, stupid. When Rabanim stick to Paskining Halacha and when the Klal actually starts learning it, we can talk. Anonymous, I totally get your choice. I would spout a whole set of platitudes about how a guy who is right for you will appreciate you for who you are, but real life sucks and stuff like that doesn’t always happen.
    Cee, I wish you happiness and I get you too. Choices born of pain, sounds familiar.
    Heimish, loose pants are Halachically Mutar. I didn’t find that out till I was about 19 from a “Modern” girl who actually learned Halacha in Brovenders. Being that you probably don’t even know what Brovenders is–no anger, just reality–you should just lay your cards down and step away from the table. This isn’t your game. Trust me, having been raised “Heimish” I can say with certainty that many in the committed MO community can Halacha the two of us right under the table.
    s(b), I really like you.
    Hesh, I just got back from Phillie and I will say that if your friend lives in the neighborhood I think and know, then she will continue to have a hard time because it’s a heavy BT community moving more and more to the right. Also, spandex? That would be so funny in Monsey. So worth it.
    Oh, btw, I keep an entire spare set of clothes for everyone in my family in the car in case of a nuclear holocaust. Just saying.

  • http://yehoshuasvertl.blogspot.com Shua

    Duuuuude! You are going to go down in flames shortly. Take your right wings and fly away. Doesn’t your Internet filter block blogs? Definitely should according to the standards issued by my shul. Come to darkest side – we have cholent…

  • http://yehoshuasvertl.blogspot.com Shua

    Duuuuude! You are going to go down in flames shortly. Take your right wings and fly away. Doesn’t your Internet filter block blogs? Definitely should according to the standards issued by my shul. Come to the darkest side – we have cholent…

  • http://yehoshuasvertl.blogspot.com Shua

    oops. sorry for the double post (now triple).

  • Mike

    So what do all you rabbis & rebitzens think the punishment for wearing pants might be.

  • utubefan

    Death by spandex.

  • chanief

    Mike, a good old fashioned stoning perhaps? Maybe a flogging?

    Dude! I’m (obviously) well aware of the expression “come to the dark side, we have cookies!” I like cookies too much to leave the dark side…

    I admit I did chuckle at your “ignorant to the chareidi world” comment. Let’s just say I come by my name (Chanie) honestly. I came, I saw, I questioned, I learned, I left. I didn’t go very far, but I’m not looking back!!

    There would be very little purpose to continuing a dialogue with someone as narrow minded as yourself. Perhaps one day your eyes will be opened to the fact that there is NO one right way, only G-d knows the right way and every one of us – Rabannim and Gedolim included, are just making assumptions and guesses at what the right way is. Until that day, I wish you a lot of luck and happiness in your “better” life.

    Shua – LOL about having cholent on the dark side, someone needs to make up a tee shirt with THAT on it!!! (Maybe a cute little devil stirring a pot of cholent?)

  • chanief

    utubefan – ROFL @ death by spandex. If that’s the case, pass me a skirt and a match with which to burn my pants! Quick!!!

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    well, they’ll stone you when you’re tryin’ to be so good … (evening, folks.)

  • anonymous

    ok i was just on facebook
    “frum satire is no longer listed as single”
    is there something you want to share with the class heshy??

  • Hesh

    Wow 93 comments and everyone is still getting a long.

    I am no longer listed as single because I am trying to make my profile a little less personal- I dont need 1200 ppl knowing my status- I have also decided I should not date girls who read my blog before they know me.

  • chanief

    For shame, now who are all of the single girls who read your blog going to date?

    I should add you on facebook…. so I can keep better tabs on you – Mwuhahahahahahaha! (scare you yet? LOL… don’t worry, I’m only kidding.)

  • Yochanan

    My 2 cents:

    I think it depends on what kind of pants:

    Tzniut: regular fitting jeans, womens business pants.

    Skanky: sweatpants, tight jeans, with words like “hottie” on the back.

    And, are skirts that tzniut? I’ve heard the reason women can’t wear pants is that they make the crotch area noticeable, or something like that. However, if a woman has some fat in the right places, a skirt can accentuate her figure. You can notice them moving more with pants. However, in a skirt, it just looks like one big gluteus maximus.

    By the way, I’m not just talking about short skirts hear. Even floor length charedi skirts can do this.

    As to the whole not arousing men thing, sometimes I think of ripping the skirt off her (consensually, of course :)). Not so with pants.

    As you mentioned, Hesh, skirts have the Marylin Monroe effect.

    The positions (not those ones) a women can be in is limited in skirts. Often they can’t sit cross legged or put their feet up.

    If women can wear pants that are tailored for them, can men wear kilts?

  • http://frumpunk.wordpress.com/ Frum Punk

    Ironically, on the day you posted the interview saying its great if you hit 20 comments and mention the ones who hit 200 you’ve almost got 100!

    Anyways, you should have mentioned kilts. I guess in Scotland kilts are beged ish!

  • Xvi

    On the topic of kilts, its not just a Scottish thing. I was in Seattle two years back and saw more than a few men wearing skirts. These werent even tartan or anything. Just skirts and flannel. Must’ve been some grunge thing I missed.

    As a further aside, the Scottish Jews actually now have their own official tartan! yay! So if you are serious about going down the kilt derech, at least do it the proper yiddish way.

  • dan lkaf zchus

    I happen to personally be against pants in almost all situations. But that doesn’t mean we can’t be civil with each other.

    Ahavas Yisroel applies to every Jew, including those we disagree with.

  • KissMeI’mShomer

    “Man, if you take a look into my world you would see that trying to make things as black and white as possible while being happy about it and not complaining on how hard it is to be jewish, you’d see its a lot more brighter and HAPPIER then your world!!! ”

    Dude: Making things black and white may indeed make the people in “your” world happier.
    But it sure doesn’t make people from “that” world happy when they visit “your” world and are snubbed.
    Not to say that “your” world snubs everyone who does not subscribe to black-and-white thinking. Just saying that “your” world is not such a bright place for everyone.