I cannot speak for everyone but there are many daily and weekly prayers I do not say, mostly due to laziness, lack of attention span or just the general I want to get done with this because I got to get out of here. Whatever it may be I know I am not alone, I know that many of the prayers in davening that I do skip, are skipped by others for similar reasons, lengths being the chief among them.
Does anyone actually say Bimay Madlikin, this is what I wonder because I use this as my mid davening bathroom break and the time when I can strategically place my looks into the women’s section without appearing to be a sex offender. The Aramaic is just too much and have you ever seen how long the damned thing is? This is one of the many situations where I long to daven nusach sphard, Kigavne is way shorter.
Another shabbos biggie which most shuls don’t even say during shul because its way to long is V’yeetane Licha. Everyone is already grabbing their car keys from behind shtenders and making their way for the door in the middle of V’yehi Noam, you expect them to stay for the longest prayer in the whole shabbos davening. Well in Ohev Shalom on 84th street they say this prayer and my father was able to finish it before I was done with Yihi Noam.
Uz Yusheer is one of those easy weekday prayers that I should say, but I don’t. You want to know why I don’t? No its not because I am lazy and just want to bust out shema and be done with it. No, that is reserved for other things like all those Brachos after the initial day school bracha response section. If not for the way they wrote Uz Yusheer in the siddurim, like they write in the torah, I would say it.
Like Uz Yusheer being written in a weird way convinces me not to say it, the way other things are written also deter me from saying them. I try to say Hodu on a “depending if I am in shul basis” but at home I rarely say it because some siddurs fail to break it up. Hodu is very foreboding even though the language is easy because not everyone can be like Shiloh and Artscroll siddurs, with the whole breaking it up after certain paragraphs. The last thing I want to see in a siddur, is a 3 page long unbroken Kerouac-esque style prayer. It just scares the heck out of me. At least when the paragraphs are broken, you can jump up and do the “oh their up to Boroch Hu, now I have an excuse to skip half of shachris.
Before I go any further with this post I should just give you all my prayer breakdown, so you don’t think I am some sort of heretic. Unlike many folks I know who simply don their straps say shema and take them off I am pretty lengthy in my abridged davening. No, I don’t say the whole thing but I do get the birchas hatorah as well as boruch sheomar squared away. Yihi chivod, ashrei random whatever I feel like Hallelukas, yishtabach all the way through shmona esray and then an ashrei as I am taking the good old tefilin off. If I am in shul I say more- as mentioned above there are some prayers that always get skipped.
Another of these prayers is the Wednesday Yom. Have you ever seen how long it is. I am sure many of you would agree. The Wednesday Yom just isn’t like Friday, if I would say it I would finish after the little earning session while everyone takes off their talis and tefilin.
While we are on prayers I never say, what about Monday and Thursday Tachnun, Tachnun is one of those things I always just did part of. In high school I would put my head down and wake up around Aleinu when the Rabbis walked around waking all the other “using prayers for sleep” people. I personally like to do the regular tachnun and throw in some nusach sphard Viduy in with the mix. I hate waiting till Roch Hashanah time to bust out Viduy.
I mentioned above the “day school bracha response section” that happens to be the one place that Conservative, Renewal and whatever flavor of the month Judaism is circulating yuppie communities, change in the siddurim. Being born as a Jew or a man or according to his will is just too politically incorrect for these people. This is also happens to be the most important section of davening for me, without these birchas hatorah abnd response blessings I would never get my 100 brachos in nor would I be able to learn torah. That said- you folks know all that stuff after Hanosane Layev Koach? Thought so, I never say that stuff, I skip all the Kitores, weird shortened Shema stuff and go right to Boruch Sheomar.
What about Yikum Porkun, man I can never figure out which one they are saying. First of all its in Aramaic, a great deterrence if I ever knew one, I was never that great at learning Gemara anyway. Then if you look in the artscroll siddur, there are a bunch of them. To top it off they always say it real fast to give the Rabbis more time to speak and by the time you figure out which one to say, its over with.
How many of you repeat Shmona Esray when you miss Yale Viyavo? I have repeated, but it sucks, and there is never kavanah involved, its always a race to kedusha which I always loose, and debate whether I really have to say the stuff after Sim Shalom or is kedusha more important. Come to think of it how many times do I bust out a self inflicted posek on which prayer is more important based on the fact I would rather be bouncing on two toes then stuck in the middle of lengthy Nishmas or something.
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great post, but bameh madlikin is actually in hebrew
I like saying bimeh madlikin, but I shouldn’t talk as I rarely make it past brachos on a typical day…
It’s all about reading skills, man. When I was little(3rd, 4th grades) I would always drift off when they davened. When the rebbe would try to get us to practice reading, I was alway embarrassed by the fact that my reading was worse than the rest, so I ran off. The end of the story is that when it comes to reading all the intimidatingly long paragraphs i too invariably skip some/most of them. The real problem comes when they ask you to the amud and the guy next to you hears you half mumbling, half snoring through the stuff till the end of the paragragh.
Great post, by the way.
btw, not funny. sorry.
you can say kedusha once youve said yiheyu leratzon at the end of shmone esrai
Hey maybe all the bimeh madlikins ain madlikins made me think it was just a another talmudic terminology infused and awfully long paragraph. Now you know i really don’t say it because I couldn’t even get the lingo right.
Why not funny???
Very funny, and true, especially about the breaking up of Hodu, adn the wednsday’s Yom or any Yom for that matter, I take the Nussach Askenaz approach, to say O’leinu after U’va L’Tzion, and Bam finished.
I try to make sure to keep my tfilin on untill i pass Poseach es yodecha, in Asdhrei, so i can give it the kiss, adn them off it goes.
But i dont get what you have against Uz yosher, its so esy to say, and not so long, maybe they put it in bigger lettering so it looks bigger, but come on
Heimishe I don’t like that in many siddurim the text for uz yusheer is placed like its in the torah- check your artscroll for reference. The text is written exactly how it appears while looking at the Torah scroll.
Great post. There you go again, mentioning the unmentionable and saying what must be said :>)
I’m no scholar, but some of the tefillot to which you refer are legitimately not everyone’s minhag, especially v’yeetain lecha (and even bameh madleekin and brich dishmei).
Honestly, anything like bameh madleekin and karbonos, which is just a rote recitation of halachos, doesn’t seem to be in the spirit of “davening” anyway, where we ask for stuff and praise Hashem.
And then, of course, is the mumbled davening of Borchei Nafshi and the mumbled response for benching gomel (come on, does anyone really know all the words besides “selah”?)
And the most neglected part of public prayer?
That would be Kinos on tisha b’av. Not to be profane or heretical (or even punny), but it’s just plain overkill. What could be moving and meaningful just ends up pummeling one into numb submission. You’ve already posted on the strange thoughts that pop up during this interlude.
Hey Ari thank you for that amazing comment- I could have went overboard and on and on about how I have no idea what the heck is being said on Friday nights after licha dodi when the guy sitting shiva comes in, or how about when someone gets called to the torah- or even that stuff in megilas esther.
Borchi Nafshi, Liduvid and all those monthly insertions around the new year are rarely said as well. I wish they put them in the middle of davening- so no one would realize I was the slowest due to never having really davened until I left high school.
funny when i was in school i too did the- not really davening just kind of looking around till everyone finishes then sitting down- but i always loved saying uz yusheer.
in fifth grade we got a certificate for memorizing the whole thing with translation i guess it just stuck
since finishing high school i do try to daven every day what is it about school that makes it feel like such a chore?
I hope your not trying to knock these tefilos just state your opinion and hopefully one day you will be up to the level of saying all of them with kavana!
Michael, if you thought for second that I was mocking the prayers- you may have to prepare yourself before reading anything else on this blog.
I find that so many people do not get sarcasm and instead view it as me knocking the frum community- when all it really is- is dry and satirical- yet very true humor.
Stacy- in school everything is forced- so of course its a chore.
You should become lubavitch, we dont say bame madlikan, vayiten licha is said privately in your home after havdalah, and an extra plus is that we don’t say slichos in between rosh hashana and yom kippur
nice advantage of being a lubavitch BT:
1) no bame madlikin; kgavne is way cooler (and apparently shorter) if you read the teitch afterwards. being as insular as I am, I didnt even know what bame madlikin was until I finally asked the snags that daven in our chabad house what they were mumbling for so long.
2) I only started davening at the end of public high school; never having been forced to daven made summoning up kavanah much easier, I’m guessing, than the average ffb.
I plead Lubavitch in many situations, I prefer saying the viduy in tachnun and tell people I choose Tanya over mesilas yesharim any day- oh and did I mention that I think chabad girl are way more intellectual, interesting and hot then any of the other major sects of orthodoxy.
after someone betches gomel, we pronounce:
Mi Sh’Gemolcha tov = the one who as bestowed good upon you,
yigmolcho tov Selo = Shall bestow good upon you, period (forever/always)
And for the record, Bameh Madlikin was added to davining by the Ga’Onim, and there are four reasons why, but wont bore you with them.
As for Berich Sh’Mai, after saying/or not saying it for 25 years, I finally picked up an Artscroll and read what it means. A pretty cool t’filah, and you are basically asking for all the goodies, when the Ark is open, supposed to make you feel like God is listnening better or something. It makes the moment feel better.
When the Avel walks in after L’Cho Dodi, its the same thing you say when you make a Sshiva call, Hamakom Yenachem…..
LOL @ “I plead Lubavitch in many situations” Are we talking just davening situations or general (‘get into the hot Chabad girls’ pants’) sort of situations?
Oh and Thank You for the inadvertent compliment. Chabad girls really are more intellectual, interesting, and hot. We make killer homemade hamantashen too *cackle* (I use the term loosely as I am more a Chabad raised girl than an actively Chabad girl.)
Ooh chabad raised girl eh, hook it up yo!
Thank you for the insight Heimishe.
Interesting post, at the end of the day all guys seem to skip the same things, it’s hilarious. You thought you were the only one? I totally forgot those long monday/thursday tachanuns because I haven’t gone to minyan in so long. In high school I would just turn the whole thing into the nefilas apayim part but that’s when I actually made it to davening. Veyiten Lecha is practically extinct, you already have to go to the back of the siddur to find it somewhere. Definitely a skipped part. As for karbanos, I haven’t met a person to date who says it. I didnt even find out what that whole space between brachos and mizmor shir chanukas was until like 9th grade when some rabbi introduced the concept. If I didnt hear about it till then, how important can it be? I’m already part of the Brachos+Shema tefillin category. Damn me.
hesh,
i daven as much as you. even though feldheim made the mishna brura 20 something volumes instead 6, korbanos is as obligatory can be, its good to know, hard to do. i know.
for the record headbanger, there are tremendous advantages to saying korbanos al pi halacha and kabbalah. I obviously don’t know exactly what they are but they are very emphasized by rabbonim of probably every sect.
and granted you haven’t met me but unless I am in a very big rush I say korbanos at least for mincha (where its shorter) and try for shacharis as well. not to toot my own horn here but I dunno too many lubavitchers that dont at least attempt it.
everybody should always at the very least start off davening with hareini mkabel alai mitzvas asei shel vahavata laraicha kamocha.
i don’t think i ever said half the things you mentioned.
i usually skip half of the hallelukas as well as the stuff between shema and shemonah esrei
btw, did you find any place better than bubba’s to eat in?
Hesh,
We (and I speak for every single male conservative jew without exception since we are all of one mind on this) don’t think “being born as a Jew or a man or according to his will is just too politically incorrect “. The Maharal notes that women were bestowed with greater potential for spiritual growth as a reason why women are not required to do time bound mitzvot. So clearly why would I thank God for not making me a woman when I would have had greater spirituality if I had been a women. The blessing makes more sense “according to His will”. Women should maybe thank God for not making them men (except maybe for the giving birth part, which even just being there for my wife was quite unpleasant watching her pain and being unable to stop it. It’s been a while (my youngest is
but I longed for the old days of waiting outside. Standing, trying very unsuccessfully to comfort, and cutting umbilical cords was an experience I could have done without).
On Bimah madleikin, I do the friday night service at home with my kids and I substitute one or two of the Pirke Avos for this, since I would like my kids to know some Pirke Avos.
The one thing I heard about Korbanos was that according to the Zohar if you say Kitores 3 times a day you go to olam habah automatically. But then again there are millions of things you can do to be guaranteed your chelek in olam habah which I never understood.
Hey Monsey chick- after I eat in all the places I will do one big review. I ne ver even ate at bubbas- I dislike going out to eat at places that sell food I can make myself easily.
There’s a bunch of things that either guarantee olam haba or make you lose your chelek forever so since I do some of each I’m hoping it balances out.
HESH, what about baruch hashem leolem amen vamen in marriv before shmenoa esrei??
Hey Headbanger lets sure as hell hope they cancel each other out.
Anon- what is this, I didn’t even realize they said that.
I actually had a list of the things that either gurantee or damn your chances of a seat in Olam haba. The scale isn’t too great for me.
Guarantees Olam Haba- Tefillin daily, 3 times saying Kitores, 3 times ashrei, learning 2 halachos a day, setting up 3 shidduchim that marry, I think holding a baby at a bris.
Things that screw you: Embarassing someone publicly, causing others to sin, speaking against Talmidei chachamim publicly, Poretz geder, Calling someone by a nickname (offensive), and being in a forbidden relationship gets Karess.
No one can really keep track of their whole life’s activities which is a real problem when wanting to look back to see if you did some of this stuff. I probably embarassed people when I was 14 but who would remember. And we all definitely cause others to sin constantly to some degree. This isn’t even half of a complete list.
Let us not forget wasting seed for which everyone says something really bad will happen to you- yet we waste it day in and day out.
I guess we shouldn’t speak for everyone, but it would be a pretty precise assumption to say most men do it weekly. Multiply the millions of sperm cells by the amount of times you did it which could also be millions and I’d say you have shitloads of teshuva to do. That’s billions of dead souls that will drag you to the mikva of death. “But it felt so good” won’t get us anywhere up there. I think no one cares that much because not many talk to teens about this, besides for the book “light of ephraim” being way too kabbalistic for the average jerkoff to understand.
I don’t think you should switch to Lubavitch nusach of davening. It’s mostly for people who are interested in talking to the Creator of the Universe, not just mumbling words. It is amazing how yiddishkeit became a “derech” for some people, a culture, a set of things “we just do”, not a way to connect to Hashem and reveal His Presence in this world.
See posts 13 and 14:
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?p=44756#post44756
chnyock – after the 1st yihyu leratzon you can only say the pasuk of 3x kadosh and the pasuk of baruch kevod. after the 2nd one you can say the whole thing
Headbanger- I am thinking of doing a post on all the stuff we will go to hell for.
Anon- you know that most of the posts on this site are for laughs, I doubt anyone would switch their derech just for a shorter davening- however I may switch my ways in order to eat fruity pebbles on pesach.
After Vayehi Binsoa, I notice people say the very complicated Brich Shemay (that is in fact in difficult Aramaic) in 5-10 seconds. This is flat out impossible. Do you know of chazzans who fake it while taking the torah from the pesicha dude who is likewise missing out on the teffilah while some anonymous Bima Hocker is deciding what torah should be taken out? This happens 3x a week. More if there is a fast or a Rosh Chodesh!
My shul used to only ask me to open the aron kodesh on yom tov because they knew teenagers are probably strong and it’s no burden making them hold the torah throughout the whole reading. The gabbai used to get pissed off when he realized I caught on to his scheme and always said no thanx but on shabbos I’ll do it, but you never ask. Brich shemay is a race between the chazzan and the congregants because if everyone else finishes first, it’s embarassing so he mumbles half of it and then proceeds to the aron.
No one ever says the whole thing when they take the torah out- unless they have super powers.
B”H And people wonder why Jews are intimidated and run away from Yahaduth, and go to some poor imitation of a beth kenesseth, or go off the derekh entirely.
This blog itself has expressed disappointment with various Humroth. Yet, being obligated (al pi halacha) to say every word in a siddur is one of the greatest travesties existing today.
Even if you look a Rash”i, Ramba”m and the Ri”f their opinions as to what constitutes Pesuqei deZimra al pi halacha vary from only 2 to 6 Tehillim, a far cry from what is contained in most siddurim.
In fact, mention this and you’ll be called an epikourus or told to “do what you’re told.”
Adding to that is most certainly honorable, and IMHO can help prepare oneself for tefillah (18).
Most rabbis bringing Jews back to Torah and misswoth emphasize the need to go slow. Yet, those raised in Jewish schools have had great expectations loaded onto them, with out any explanation. True it says “na’aseh wenishma’,” but I think we need to find ways not to drive Jews away. Fortunately, I believe there are some positive changes being made in educational institutions.
I’ve had students who feel overwhelmed by shaharith. Then I ask them if they can say birchoth hashahar, qeriyath sh’ma’ and 18, and they say, sure no problem.
Gee. I wonder why.
I hope no one feels in the least bit guilty for saying every word in the siddur.
RE: Birkoth HaShahar, Heshman, try saying them as you do the associated act in the morning. It may give you additional meaning to the brakhoth. It’s in the gemara (& cited by the Ramba”m) as the proper time to say these brakhoth, but don’t tell anyone. You’ll be called an epikourus.
I have no doubt someone will mention having to go to the bathroom or washing ones hands before hand. Hopefully they’ll mention a [halachic] source for this. But I doubt it.
Thank you ben yehuda for that- great insights and it happens to be that one of my things if you shall is to learn what davening actually means and so on.
Hey Ben Yehuda, just check out the Shulchan Oruch Harav for the source of saying all the Birchos Hashachar at one time, not piecemeal.
B”H
No need.
{I just love Chabba”d arrogance,…”HaRav” Which “rav?” There are many.}
Why? What’s your point? Save me the trip.
The Ramba”m follows the Bavli, almost to a tee.
The reasoning behind the Sha”tz saying them in the beth kenesseth is to motzei the am ha’artzim who do not know to say them the proper way at home.
Hey darling, I just love Chabad-haters. I was in a regular Torah U’mesorah school for most of my life and all the teachers, hardly Lubavitch lovers, called the Alter Rebbe’s Shulchan Oruch “Shulchan Oruch Harav.” Why did they do that? Perhaps because that’s its name? Is there any other Sefer called “Shulchan ruch Harav?” Yeah, I didn’t think so. So stop getting all snotty. As for the Rambam following the Bavli, A. Ashkenazim don’t Pasken like the Rambam, and B. No one Paskens straight from the Gemara.
Anyway, all you wanted was a Halachic source for washing hands and going to the bathroom, which I provided. If you’re too…I don’t know what…to look it up, that’s not my problem.
Heshy, each person has his own unique talents and abilities. G-d created all of us, so only He has the right to judge. If you are unable to say all the prayers, G-d will understand, because He understands your limitations. You should not feel guilty or worry what others have to say.
Remember, as we say after Pirkei Avos, G-d created many Mitzvos to give us opportunities for success. If you can’t daven the entire thing, then maybe you can find another Mitzvah that you can do.
B”H
“Ashkenazim don’t Pasken like the Rambam”
Typical yid fun galus.
Here we go again: Hashqafah before halacha, and fantasies about minhagei avoth.
Who learns Rambam every day? Yeah, it’s Lubavitch that learns Rambam every day. Just because we don’t Pasken like him doesn’t mean we don’t like him. Why is it “Typical yid fun galus” to follow the Ramah, Magen Avraham, and the Alter Rebbe? Are these people not good enough for you?
Bichlal, Hashkafa doesn’t come into the picture; in Lubavitch we follow Shulchan Oruch. As for fantasies? You’re the only one having them here.
i once heard that of the hallelukas, the 1st, 3rd, and 5th are the most important so when i’m in a rush, i just say those. but i don’t know if that has any basis or not. and i also skip the akeida if i don’t have time. i know it’s easy to read but it’s pretty long. and it’s like reading the parsha during davening. also, i don’t think the chazan says the whole pitum haketores on shabbos (or during the week as well if you’re chabad). they finish that one so fast – kind of like yakum purkan.
one great reason everyone should daven nusach ari (lubavitch) – we end at aleinu. sure, we have al teira and ach tzadikim, two little lines, but those are supposed to be mumbled while you put away your siddur. i davened in a nusach ashkenaz shul once on shabbos and the davening never ended! i mean, after aleinu they went on for like 20 minutes – with the yom, anim zemiros (which lubavitch doesn’t even say!), adon olam (or was it yigdal? i don’t know. we also don’t say yigdal). but they just kept going. and i just stood there awkwardly because i had already put my siddur away. not to mention that it took me forever to find an ari siddur in the first place. and the davening started way too early. what’s up with 7:45 davening on shabbos? i wonder what time they wake up to go to the mikvah and learn chassidus before davening (kidding)! but seriously, it’s rough to daven that early.
Ben-Yehuda,
Guess what hot shot. You are also a “yid fun golus.” Just because you are in E’Y, does not make it any less golusdik than if you would be chutz laaretz.
Tisha bAv is takka sad over there. You are able to see the ruins in person.
You know how I know it’s golus? Because Jews are R’L insulting the S.A.H.R and Lubavitch. The Alter Rebbe is universally (as in without any disagreement by any serious poskim) regarded as one of the biggest Acharonim ever. The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch was based on three acharonim, one of which is the Alter Rebbe. Or is that not authoritative enough for you? Furthermore, his is the most recent Shulchan Aruch written. He was entrusted by the holy Maggid of Meziritch to write a Shulchan Aruch for the whole klal yisroel. His knowledge in nigleh and halacha is phenomenal, not to mention his well known knowledge of nistar.
Thanks for the support, hippie. I’d also like to quickly point out, in the interests of the original discussion, that the relevant passages in the Shulhchan Oruch Harav can be found in Siman 46, Halacha 3, and may I point out that it’s based on the Rosh, Tur, and Shulchan Oruch, among others? And if you can stomach the thought, Ben Yehuda, check out the Igros Kodesh of the Rebbe, vol. 19, page 390.
Wow a fight on an old post- but such animosity!
We try to oblige
B”H
“Guess what hot shot. You are also a “yid fun golus.” Just because you are in E’Y, does not make it any less golusdik than if you would be chutz laaretz.”
Who said that’s why I threw this punch? Not.
Who’s insulting the Lubavitcher Rebbe ztz”l?
B”H
No, the Kitzur SA is not authoritative for me.
Furthermore, if anyone would actually bother to read the Haqdemah of the Beth Yoesf, he would see that the SA was never intended as a codification.
There is nothing assur about saying birkoth hashahar in the beth kenesseth. Let’s just understand why that developed AND how that was not the original way it was ever supposed to be said.
Who originally call the SA HaRav, the SA HaRav? And why?
I rest my case.
BTW, “ditto” to TRS’s last comment.
We like you, Hesh, we really like you. {alla Sally Field’s second Oscar acceptance speech}
Ok Ben Yehudah, now it’s my turn. Fun.
A. So why did you throw that punch?
B. You’re not insulting the Rebbe Maham? (I just put that in there to rile you up
C. The Kitzur is not authoritative for me either.
D. Do you eat chicken with milk? Do we say Berachos the way they were originally developed? Times change.
E. The Alter Rebbe did not call his Shulchan Oruch anything, because the only part that was printed in his lifetime was Mitzva Talmud Torah, which was published anonymously. Look at the stories with the Vilna Gaon re: this. The rest of the Shulchan Oruch Harav was printed posthumously. And why this name? Possibly because he was The master in Nigleh and Chassidus? Possibly.
F. I rest my case.
G. I love you too baby.
I’ll ask the question that’s on the mind of every secular Jew who stumbles across this nonsense: Why bother? Why waste one precious moment of your life talking to a deity who isn’t there and THEN waste more precious moments figuring out ways to short-change him?
Who said he isn’t there – just because people are making fun of the different ways to reach God doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist – or does exist for that matter.
Everything is grist for humor, and humor is very Jewish. But I stand by my original statement.
It’s a matter of how you structure your reality and fill your life according to that reality structure.
If I can get God to give me the one-on-one personal demo that Moses got, I’ll be the most ardent believer you ever saw.
shalom
Alan – you actually probably wouldnt.
People have had direct experiences with G-d and didnt change much / at all (Avimelech, Bil’am, some of the people at Har Sinai etc)
I, like you, probably wouldnt be able to handle the reality of coming face-to-face with G-d…. If it was beneficial for us to meet him, he would appear to us, because he loves us.
Shlomo says “If Moshiach would walk into the room this minute, half the people would be jumping staright out the window…” so true
Moshe,
Thanks for writing, and clever rebuttal, but those people didn’t have experiences with God because he doesn’t exist. Maybe they had drug-induced hallucinations, or underwent mass auto-hypnosis.
I repeat: I’m waiting for an ACTUAL, up-close-and-personal encounter. If God’s so powerful, why does he need so many middlemen? And why is he so coy about disproving doubters by actually showing up?
Shalom,
Alan
Alan
Your argument seems to be “I have concluded, with absolute certainty, how G-d, (if he existed) would choose to behave. No such behaviour has happened, ergo, he can’t exist.”
Is this the logical foundation of your atheism? Even Dawkins has better arguments than this…
Moshe
PS: Imagine if G-d “humoured” you … the day after you had your “experience”, how would you look back and be sure that you didn’t have a hallucination, mass auto-hypnosis, etc? Well, you might say “I would be sure, and I would remember” … but that’s exactly what Moshe felt, but you maintain he could be mistaken … Is there really anything G-d could do to change your mind, Alan?
Hi Moshe,
I admit, I’m only going by his past behavior. Fearsome manifestations involving outright violations of the laws of nature would do just fine. I repeat: if he did it for the ancients, why not us?
So what will happen if I wrote God, without your reverential hyphen? Will I be torched like Aaron’s sons?
Not the logical foundation, just the response to one point.
shalom,
Alan
hmmm… past behaviour, rarely.
Is your point –
A. please give me a plausible reason why G-d might have revealed himself, rarely, a long time ago and yet doesn’t reveal himself today – specifically why doesn’t he reveal himself to me?
B. I refuse to countenance any possibility that G-d spoke to some people, since he hasn’t spoken to me. I am convinced that there is no possible valid reason why we may have chosen to speak to them and not to me, ergo, I refuse to even explore and ocnsider the evidence that he ever spoke to an.yone
If it is “A.”, I am sure you can come up with many plausible answers if you think about it sincerely – i came up with 5 possibles in 5 minutes without hardly even trying, here goes
1. maybe they were more worthy than me, perhaps it’s a privilege i don’t deserve.
2. maybe when the Rabbis of the Great Assembly (circa 200 BCE?, recorded in Talmud) begged G-d (apparently successfully) to remove the burning desire for pagan idolatry that pervaded the world until then, the quid-pro-quo was no G-dly revelations either , even for Alan.
3. maybe G-d wants most of the generations of Man to make their free-will choice to seek him and love him on their own, without revelation, and one early generation HAD to have a revelation to enable us to have a rational, logical foundation to our belief
4. maybe I need to take the first steps to G-d, and perhaps then I will experience a revelation – the Israelites who experienced revelation had done some brave things and walked out of their comfort zone into a wilderness following G-d – that was before G-d revealed himself to them…
5. maybe it would harm me, despite what I think now, perhaps the actual reality is that I would find it impossible to actually live out the G-dly lifestyle , and the stress of trying would screw me up (Don’t forget, the our ancestors worshipped a Golden Calf 40 days after G-d spoke to them…)
If your point is “B.” – i maintain there’s not much logic in it, it smacks of a clever person’s lazy thinking to get himself off the hook of making the effort of honestly examining the evidence that G-d (may exist, and) may have spoken to man
You won’t feel anything happening if you write God (i just did it too
) just as you probably won’t feel anything happening if you break any other of G-d’s laws. Whether you’re spiritually harming your soul and the whole world, or not, is surely something deserves a litle investigation before rejecting completely, no?
FYI, I write G-d as an act of love and respect for him, not because of fear of being torched… It’s fairly easy, doesn’t involve any major internal battle for me, so why not? There are so many harder ways of showing love and respect for G-d that i mess up on… still i keep trying
My point is A. B contains a lot of maybe’s, M-she (showing my love and respect for you).
Please explain to this theological retard how the same logic does not apply to Batman, Superman or any other nonexistent superhero who reveals himself only to a select few in stories, but never first-hand to everybody.
Maybe Nietzche’s right — God’s dead and so that’s why he doesn’t show. Zeus and Allah ganged up and did him in, maybe. Everyone’s stories are equally valid, M-she. That’s the difference between stories and reality.
“Spiritually harming your soul” means….what? These words do not refer to anything in the knowable world.
shalom,
Alan
I have no idea what any of you are talking about – but go on and have your discussion
test
Your point is A. So I don’t think you’ll have too much trouble finding plausible reasons of your own why G-d might not appear to you, without it implying his non-existence. You don’t need to wait to have an encounter, and you may lose out by waiting.
If there’s a hot share tip, from reasonable people, sure, you could wait for the CEO to come round & and give you a personal powerpoint demo that buying his share will make your fortune… or you could realise that sitting around waiting might mean you lose out bigtime, and it’s up to you to seize the opportunity, get out from your comfort zone and at least do a little Due Diligence on the company.
Intellectually, I think that’s all G-d would ever ask of you – do a little Due Diligence.
Listen with an open mind to what the other side has to say. If there were a mass movement in human history claiming that personal belief in Batman was…
a/true, and demonstrably true beyond reasonable doubt
b/moral
c/the most gratifying pleasure out there, better than sex
d/a comfort and help during hard times in life
e/helpful to all of humanity, and all of existence
then yes, I think you would owe it to yourself to investigate their claims.
Heshy
you say that, but i appear to be restricted and unable to discuss
Moshe
mcr4444 at yahoo dot com
Your point is A. So I don’t think you’ll have too much trouble finding plausible reasons of your own why G-d might not appear to you, without it implying his non-existence. You don’t need to wait to have an encounter, and you may lose out by waiting.
If there’s a hot share tip, from reasonable people, sure, you could wait for the CEO to come round & and give you a personal powerpoint demo that buying his share will make your fortune… or you could realise that sitting around waiting might mean you lose out bigtime, and it’s up to you to seize the opportunity, get out from your comfort zone and at least do a little Due Diligence on the company.
Intellectually, I think that’s all G-d would ever ask of you – do a little Due Diligence.
Listen with an open mind to what the other side has to say. If there were a mass movement in human history claiming that personal belief in Batman was…
a/true, and demonstrably true beyond reasonable doubt
b/moral
c/the most gratifying pleasure out there, better than sex
d/a comfort and help during hard times in life
e/helpful to all of humanity, and all of existence
then yes, I think you would owe it to yourself to investigate their claims.
No honest person would really think that any random theory eg “Flying Spaghetti Monster”, or the real existence of Batman etc really deserves equal investigation, or that the impossibility of that equal investigation of every possible theology means that even the main religious claims of the mass of humanity should be discarded.
I think a rational person, unafraid of where intellectual exploration will lead, would think that the claims of the world’s major religions also deserve some time and attention. With a strong grounding in modern, progressive, western modes of thought, he would have no trouble assessing the likely truth.
I would point to Judaism as the first religion to start with because …
- it is accepted as the the originally true story, by both Christianity and Islam, which 50%+ of people alive today believe
- It’s the only religion AFAIK which claims its truth can be proved logically, beyond reasonable doubt – no “leap of faith” required.
- miraculous survival and thriving of Jews for 1000’s of years against all the odds
- (guessing) doesn’t the religion you were born into deserve even a day of your life to honestly evaluate it?
You sound like you are aware of Neitzche and I also (guessing) think that you are a fairly clever, knowledgable and insightful person.
From your comments it doesn’t sound like you know the rational arguments Judaism would put forward, it is one thing to know them and disagree with them, but surely if you don’t even know them you are not the intellectual you would maybe like to be.
I would estimate that a knowledgeable person could make the case for Judaism in a discussion lasting 1 day.
I urge you to investigate and will have every respect for you if you investigate and come to a different conclusion than i did. I may even call you Al-an!
Heshy
all better now – thanks
Ov vey, M-she, your thinking is so muddled and full of false premises that I don’t know where to start and I have a lot to do today. I don’t accept the provisional truth of (a)-(e), and I assure you I have done my due diligence. My book is called “An Atheist Reads the Torah.”
http://www.amazon.com/Atheist-Reads-Torah-Humanistic-Perspectives/dp/141208301X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238524788&sr=8-1
shalom,
Alan
1. Well, thanks for the ad-hominem attacks. How “humanistic”. I suppose phrasing something in a way that is more respectful to other people who have come to different conclusions (by their careful analysis of the same data you have) and less dogmatically arrogant towards anyone that doesn’t think the way you do is not important when you “have a lot to do today”. Still, as long you put in a “Shalom” at the end.
2. I never said a-e were true, I simply stated the undeniable truth that they are CLAIMED TO BE TRUE by the majority of your fellow humans alive today, and that was surely enough to suggest to a reasonable person to do some DD on the veracity of these claims.
I am can’t see the congruity of your answer to that argument “I don’t accept the provisional truth of (a)-(e), and I assure you I have done my due diligence”
Based on comments you’ve made, I strongly doubt that your DD included a day spent in open-minded discussion with an expert on Orthodox Judaism.
You seem to be completely unaware of what he would consider to be the demonstrable proofs (to “beyond reasonable doubt” standard) of the truth of the Torah as it is understood by Orthodox Judaism, including the parts you so disparage as interpretations by the Rabbis (the ones popularly accepted as Rabbis through the ages by the mainstream of Orthodox Jews who consider themselves bound by the Torah in the first place).
Come back and tell me that you have spent such a day or half-day and still consider all their proofs and arguments to be without merit, and i will respect you as intellectually honest. Without that i don’t see how you aren’t as blinkered as you claim they are.
However well-read you may be, if you have not explored the truth of Orthodox Judaism in the dynamic forum of a face-to-face discussion, you haven’t meaningfully explored it at all (in my opinion).
Moshe
Moshe
M-she,
I apologize for my late reply. I suggest you review the definition of ad hominem. I was critiquing your thinking, not you personally.
I love you guys. You are my Jewish brothers. We are genetic relatives, probably not that distant.
I did not mean to be dismissive. But I do not apologize for having a life away from the computer. I’m going through a divorce; please have a little rachmones. I really wish I could have just said “I divorce thee” three times — isn’t that what you believe? — rather than go through all this. Also, I work.
What I do not love is the way you guys argue sideways. Instead of addressing my central question — on what grounds do you believe the Torah to be anything more than something some priests wrote a long time ago, just a document (which is how I see it)? — you refer me to a higher authority or mode of experience. What I need is more, or different indoctrination; maybe something will take.
After a lifetime of experience with Jewish authorities and rabbinical spin, when do I get to the end of “one more rabbi”? M-she, nothing will convince me that the Torah is history. Nothing.
No, M-she, I believe in the (fallible) power of human reason. If I took the trouble to read the Torah cover to cover and write a book about it, then I require YOU to confront MY argument face-on and tell me where I’m wrong.
I have done my DD. Now you do yours.
All further discussion is suspended till then. Give me an address, and I’ll send you a free copy.
shalom,
Alan
Since you’re on the topic of skipping around…. Since my wife has been dragging me to shul more and more, I figgered I may as well read the siddur instead of faking it as I did when I was a kid. I was intimidated by everyone around me who zoomed through everything, including my classmates. As a result, I never really learned to read the prayers properly, and never got familiar with them, let alone memorize them.
Even though I went through the yeshiva system, I never learned Hebrew, so I never learned what I was saying. Only after reading through Artscroll, have I realized what it’s all about. In fact, I read the english when I’m lazy. I can’t believe that most people daven with any kavanah because I can’t get through the English as quickly as they get through the Hebrew. It’s become rote for these folks. And they don’t care, as long as they fool themselves that they’ve prayed.