I was talking to one of my friends who had recently got engaged, in the middle of the conversation I piped in “by the way you guys are totally not shomer right?” There was a brief pause and then he responded with a nervous, “what are you talking about?” Then he said that they were sort of shomer. Which in my experience means that they were completely shomer until they got engaged which is SUE- shomer until engaged, and then they started holding hands etc…
I have had this conversation with many friends of mine who were engaged. Perfectly normal frum guys who never even touched a girl prior to getting engaged have all admitted that during their engagement they broke the rules, usually just a bit, although I think its usually more then just a bit based on human nature to want more when of something when its darned good, and what could be better then getting all touchy feely with a girl your about to marry.
For some reason I left this category of Fictional Shomer Negiah out of my post listing all the different types of shomer negiah levels. FSN is probably one of the most common practices that I know of. Even I went through FSN when I was engaged.
I remember asking a good friend of mine how the hell he managed to be shomer negia during his engagement because while I lasted a pretty darn long time I could feel my heart breaking every time I wanted to reach out and touch my women. He laughed in my face and said Ha- I wish we were shomer during our engagement. Of course I was shocked because this dude was such a yeshivish guy who learned all day, and that is when I learned about fictional shomer negiah.
FSN can be spotted on a regular basis, next time your eating somewhere for shabbos and there is a newlywed couple present be sure to catch the action going on under the table. Or if you see them on a couch and they aren’t instinctively moving away from each other for fear of touching they may be practicing FSN.
Within FSN are two common sub-categories. There are those folks who play 100% FSN and those who’s friends know the truth while their family, Rabbeim and other surrounding folks may think all is honky dori, when in fact their newly engaged children are getting busy at all times when no adults are present.
I think that the latter is very common since I can pretty much tell if a couple is keeping negia. The comfort levels are one way as well as their willingness to sit together on couches and how close they get when passing things and so on. A true negiah keeping couple is very careful against accidental touching that occurs when sitting close or walking side by side.
Furthermore, most guys- I cannot speak for girls, but most guys I know- are much more likely to divulge that they couldn’t take it any more and broke negia. First off it spurs great conversation, because no male can fight off the urge to talk about their friends sex lives, no matter how trivial. In the engaged scene, holding hands is almost interesting to talk about- especially if the friend is like the “40 year old virgin” and prior to this hand holding had never even brushed up against a girl in the grocery store. So while the girl may think the guy is keeping his mouth closed about their secret negiah escapades under the shabbos table during the chopped liver course, the guy almost never keeps quiet, its in our nature to flaunt our sexual experiences, although many folks do in fact refrain from the details until after marriage- the details of their engagement negiah will eventually come out over some beers and leftover cholent.
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{ 80 comments… read them below or add one }
yo hesh i love the negiah posts-they are laways funny and informative. the idea of shomer or not is just weird to me-who would care if you touch girls-especially if u are about to marry the chick and make some nice jewish babies. check out my new blog-http://commonsensejew.blogspot.com/
please tell me what u think!
Dude I will definitely check it out when time lets me- I have been actively getting the new blog up to speed.
You may want to fill out the website form when you comment so you can get people to your site- it makes it easier if they could just click the link.
Pple care common sense jew, pple care!!
I wasn’t 100% shomer either. My first son was well on his way by the time we got married.
By the way, how many “women” did you touch when you were engaged?
Well in a Bill Clintonesque way it depends on what you mean by touch?
Like when my Charedi aunt who is 80 years old goes in for the cheek kiss I do not shy away- although most people think this is breaking SN.
For all intensive purposes I only touched one- my wife to be.
Hey shlemazl, so then ur saying you were about 95% shomer then eh!! LOL!! You dirty!!
This is the second time I have heard someone say (or write) “for all intensive purposes” instead of “for all intents and purposes”
see http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/intensive.html
ME: please scroll to the bottom of the page and read the disclaimer- I fail to understand why people fail to comment on the subject matter and go on with thier spell check shit.
If you have nothing to add to the discussion why are you commenting?
to make u feel dumb and they feel smart= anyway i cannnnot blv the frummest are practicin fake negia- should i? lol
r u sure
I have never corrected spelling or grammer mistakes. I am simply pointing out that the saying “for all intensive purposes” does not exist!. I have read your spelling disclaimer and I do not point out spelling errors.
Yes, dear JAP from NY, 95% shomer would be about right. It was only a small part of me that did a little touching.
Fictional shomer negia is actually, from what I understand, condoned by most rabbinical authorities. It is in line with the our long-standing tradition of minimizing a couple’s engagement time. That is, in their eagerness to wed before their friends can get a chance to say “you got engaged? no shi_!”, many young engaged couples have decided to jump the gun (pun sorta intended) and prepare for that most important of commandments. So, you see, it’s all with good intention.
P.S. Shlemazl’s posts kick tuchot!
My kallah and I keep shomer in public.
What about people on frumster who appear to keep SN and are totally “searching for their beshert”, but were at a bar last weekend hooking up with random ladies? Oh, I wasn’t aware your beshert was…uh… down her throat… yup.
I guess it must have been a really SMALL part!! Too bad on her eh!!
FUK SPEL CHEK !
HESH, CHECK OUT MY POST ON SHOMER NEGIA, DEDICATED 2 U !
http://babyboiiluvu.blogspot.com/
First off
me // Aug 12, 2007 at 4:21 pm
This is the second time I have heard someone say (or write) “for all intensive purposes” instead of “for all intents and purposes”
Sooo funny
Mazeartist // Aug 13, 2007 at 12:22 am
My kallah and I keep shomer in public.
This is exactly wat FSN is…
10 flatbush gal // Aug 12, 2007 at 8:22 pm
to make u feel dumb and they feel smart= anyway i cannnnot blv the frummest are practicin fake negia- should i? lol
r u sure
We Are sure- My sister who is super frum and SUPER yeshivish and married a super yeshivish guy ( married 11 yrs still in kollel not planning on leaving type) told me that she wasnt shomer negia wen she was engaged- i take that to mean holding hands…but who knows- creeps me out to think of them doing anything
she told me she regrets it so much….
Most ppl i talk to say that they want to try to keep SN wen they are engaged but realistiucally kno it probably wont work
Oh and shlemazl- u r mad funny
I think any frummies who claim to be SN when they are engaged or even in a serious relationship are full of sh-t even if they say they werent when you ask them. Well, maybe he’s secretly gay and thats another issue.
notsofrummie, you are just projecting your own feelings; it is very transparent. If you cant control yourself that doesnt mean noone else can
ok i needa know, my friends bro met a girl in brooklyn college and now theyre are married he went to bais she went to michlala some1 wanna throw out a percentage on how likely it is they were fake negiah-ers?? yes u can steriotype by where they went in israel….
Sorry I am arriving late to the show, long day at work and then a long kayak in some swamp to conclude my day.
Slemazl:
You rock I laugh at all your comments
Shmuli:
Tis the truth, the folks I know who kept it, were only engaged for a month or so, any longer and many folks cannot hold it in no more. I am all for quick engagement periods, if you know its the person, git er done.
LilBt:
Well actually, just because they are on frumster does not mean they are shomer negia. For instance if you scroll around the MOdox folks you will see many girls with pictures that have the guy cut out of them but the hairy hand around them is not likely a girls, nor is it their brothers- usually.
Also I wrote a post a while back about the hypocritical nature of someone who gets laid every night, while fielding shidduch offers at the same time.
Thank you Leah Kleim- I will check it out, the spelling will be watched sort of, but the language- try and watch the F-bomb.
By the way, I am not saying EVERYONE. I am just talking about folks I know. I should make this clear, most of the people I know are MO machmir types that attended black hat yeshivas like Ner Yisroel, Chofetz Chaim and Rodinsky. I am not friendly with folks from hardcore yeshivas like Ohr Shraga and Peekskill.
Flatbush Gal:
I dont know, but my first cousins wife, runs michlala in Israel- how about that yichus.
Tell you what guys, I plan on keeping SN until the yichud room. If I can do it then anyone can lol!! K, almost everyone!! Now I want to keep it even more cuz I want to prove to you guys that even a hard core flirt like me can do it!
Hmm, I never realized that people who claim to be so frum do this sort of stuff. I know it’s not all of them, but still, even some…
I think I’d try, but if I can’t do it, then at least I could say I tried, right?
Hesh, What starts with F and ends with U C K ?
Shomer nigia wouldn’t be such a DAMN juicy topic if people were keeping it.
The ones who say SCREW shomer nigia and PLAY around before there big yichud room moment are the ones who are also telling there raunchy stories and braging about the latest Chanie they bent over, or there new Sarah who is partial shomer negia so they SHTUPED her in punim un gegeben a zets oifen TUCHES while chanie was bleeding.
If the charedim werent seeking the same non shomer YICHUS that the “Bad” crowd
is SPRITZIN in ,they wouldnt be listening to every chanie tuches story with there lange payes gone wild and there pedal to the medal in the dodge caravan doin’ 90 down Atlantic ave to the Riviera Motel.
(frum) jews dont accept jesus (wwjd ?) No matter how many times someone gives us the jesus died on the cross for you bubbe meise, we dont listen. WE ARE NOT INTERESTED !
IF THE CHAREDIM REALLY WANTED TO BE SHOMER NIGIA THEY WOULD BE ! instead the charedim are trying every thing they can think up in yidish to get out of the shomer negia club and in to chanies pants.
F ire tr UCK !
Aliza just because someone is not keeping negia does mean they are not frum. EVERYONE has their tayvos and nisronos, this is just a real hard one that most people succumb to.
Ho find me a yeshiva bochur that does not masturbate- masturbation is one of the worst sins one can do- yet almost everyone (males) partakes in this pasttime- I do not talk about it much because I think the topic is a bit too raunchy. Are they not frum because of it???
I know that, it just surprised me is all.
Aliza…Its way more prevalent that u can imagine
Heya, I think you should make a distinction between FSN during engagement and FSN after marrage.
I have to admit, I fell into tiava during my engagement and was a FSN as you call it.
However after going through a Yom Kippur Kattan before my wedding, and having my slate cleaned under the chupah, I have never violated SN since. We even keep all the harchakos to the letter (which btw REALLY helps to keep SN during niddah).
while I am sure there are FSN couples, I think most are only FSN during engagement and then fix themsleves up during niddah-times. – I hope.
For what its worth, I never touched my fiance until I put the ring on her finger under the chupah. BTW for all those who think the yichud romm is for a quikie before the wedding, dream on, it does not happen. You have 5 minutes to munch on some food and drink something after fasting all day. Besides the fact that it would take at least an hour to get that dress on and off by youself. Also once you have intercourse she is a niddah for 2 weeks, so if you want to enjoy the night in the hotel there is no way.
Woah, really, after the first night the wife’s nidda for 2 weeks? Why??? What happened to enjoying the first couple weeks of marriage in… that… way?
U dumass there is no such thing as “shomer negiah”
a man is only prohibited from touching a woman who is menstrating !!! its a myth that you modern orthodox and faltbush trash invented shove it
FACT: there is no place in the entire jewish library that such a term exists your post is very stupid im sorry
Josh, it is difficult to say there is no such thing as shomer negia, and use those words in the same sentence. Obviously, there is such a thing. You may argue that the term has been coined fairly recently, but then so has much of our daily vernacular. Additionally, it is not mentioned anywhere in Jewish law that a man may not touch his wife when she is menstrating, it says nidah, which is a state of impurity which continues after the period until she goes to the mikvah. Hece, just about everu single jewish girl is a nidahh until a few days before her weddind, when she goes to the mikvah.
Dumb ass is spelled with a B so who’s the dumb ass now? Biatch
First of all Josh-Where the HECK did you come up with that one!??!?! Go READ the whole “jewish library” and then come back and comment. If you still cant find the facts and truth then let me point some out for you!! Well, Blue just made it pretty clear actually!!
Seconed-I know you dont do much in the yichud room, but that is the first official touching between a couple. Hence, kissing…..! (LOL!)
Third-Aliza, after the first time you can only do it for a little until the girl bleeds then she stops and becomes a nida for 4-5 days then has to wait another 7 days. Once she goes to the mikva then she is pure for her husband. Thats why many pple wait till after sheva brachos to be with their spouse for the first time. Its a new thing ti wait and Chosson and Kallah teachers are now giving that option to engaged couples!!
And fourth-Hesh, YOU corrected someones spelling?!?!?!?? LOL!!! Good one!!
Dont have sex until the third or fourth night. Apparently most folks don’t do it the first night any way because its too awkward.
He may be right I have no idea if shomer negia is actual halacha or just widely accepted chumra.
I dont think anyone is going to win this ongoing argument if someone doesnt actually look this whole thing up and bring in actual facts and halachos with references!!
I asked a person I am really close with if she would have waited if she knew she could and she said yes!!! (shes in her late 40′s, so not so new to the scene lol!!)
We’ll see I guess!!! LOL!!
MW, after spending 2 hours + putting on makeup, are you really going to be smooching in the yichud room messing it up?
Not touching is a later chumra (similar to yichud) instituted for good reason (as seen by the comments here)
Um, YES!!!!!!! The makeup lady stays till after to touch up the lipstick-but Hell yeah I’m ganna kiss my husband in the yichud room!!!
Talk about morning breath- jeez that would suck.
Way to go MW!! LOL!!
Seriously Blue I wouldnt put too much stock in a marriage where the kallah doesnt want to kiss her chosson because she doesnt want to mess up her make-up. Sounds a lot like those women who tart themselves up when they go outside but for their husbands look like shlumps. Wrong priorities.
Heshy – a listerine strip or two does the trick!!
It’s in Sefer Vayikra (Leviticus) Perek yud chet(Chapter 18) Pasuk vav (Verse 6)
6. No man shall come near to any of his close relatives, to uncover [their] nakedness. I am the Lord.
No man shall come near( ?????)
The use of come near/come close to = Touching because that is a way of getting close to someone. So touching = bad.
This is just what they taught in me in seminary, and I chose to take it.
touching is not bad,
touching is great..
thats why we try to save it for someone special
Dude, I’m ganna do something about the breath situation!! Your talking to a girl who brushes her teeth 2-3 times a day. And why is this a shock to you all?? Most pple kiss in the yichud room!!
And Hesh-you shower in the sink b4 going on a date!! And ur telling me about bad breath when smooching my husband for the first time!?!?!?!?!? LOL!!!
And Thanks Tzivo ;P
And Aliza, thanks for a reference! There is plenty more of it all over. And you chose right!!
MW- Third-Aliza, after the first time you can only do it for a little until the bleeds then she stops and becomes a nida for 4-5 days then has to wait another 7 days.
Slight correction, you can finish what you started
even if she bleeds because its assumed to be bleeding from the hymen.
another point about waiting is that if you dont consumate the marriage and she does get her menses then you may need to get a shomer (like by a chupat nidda) (although there are authorites that are lenient becuase you were intimate already without sealing the deal) even if she’s on a pill that pervents bleeding it may not be perfect and cause breakthrough bleeding
planning a “safe day” 3 months in advance is difficult enough.
but i DO recommend waiting if it works
Thanks Nigel, I actually knew that lol!!
Your breath is so bad because you have been fasting all day.
I know that!! But as I said, I will do something about it b4 hand. There are options-listorine, mouthwash, breath mint, ACTUALLY BRUSHING MY TEETH!!! I’ll figure it out when the time comes. I’m not worried!! LOL!! Hesh, ur telling me ur not ganna kiss ur wife!?!?
And P.S.-Maybe I’ll get married on Rosh Chodesh!!
If Rabonim are waisting there time on Strawberries having bugs and not being kosher anymore, and women swinging there arms when they walk, or who can go to what concert during and or after the strawberry shiva , and my Mishigineh Yichusless blog…I think I can give a lil’ halocha muser and Taharas Hamishpocha / Nida shiur.
Back in the day when Chabad was a real establishment and a true sorce of Nachas for the whole Jewish nation….In the days when if bloggers did exisist they would have positive things to post about chabad….When we had our Rebbe…When we were proud to be Chabad and we were Chabad….Before Gimul Tamuz of 1994.
The Lubavitch girls would go to Kallah classes when they got engaged, Mrs Altein, My principal was one of the chushuve teachers that the young brides would go to.
They were given a copy of the green and yellow book…Sefer Halochas Nidah.
On the day of the “Chasuneh” the choson and kallah would both fast…unless it was Rosh Chodesh (or a few other select holy days)
Even if there wedding night follows Rosh Chodesh and they didnt have to fast its usur for them to indulge (in eating) or consume intoxicating beverages (whole nother megilah).
Kaboles Ponim….was origionally only a minhug(custome) for virgin brides
The Vail is placed over the Kallas face, before they do there thing under the chuppah.
The Choson weares a Kitul, to remind him of “the day of death” and so he will repent, ashes are also sprinkled on the chossons head, where his Tfilin would normaly go…..a custom performed by mourners. Its his personal day of Teshvaha / atonement.
Before the Chosson and Kallah go under the Chuppah they are supposed to daven and beg mechilah and make the decision not to repeat there prior sins (from birth) and it is there personal “Yom Kippur” That is why during most frum weddings before the chuppah ceremony the chosson and kallah are usually davening and crying or somber instead of celebrating.
After they Go to the Yichud room and consumate there marriage/ make it kosher and “legal” They begin there new life as a family, a mitzvah, a new entity. with G-D between them.
If worthy…….thats why they have there personal yom hazikoron and repent and beg michilah, so that they will enter there new unity, life, journey….pure and with G-Ds presence between them and nothing else between them.
It says that “if they are deserving” Hashem will rest his presence between them, that is why some say Al Chet at Minchah before the Chasunah.
After the chuppah the chosson and kallah go to the “Yichud Room” they have to be alone with the door closed, and they have to eat something together (they brake there fast) doing this is what validates the mariage. The choson and kalah are allowed to have physical contact in the yichud room, (after they eat a kezais of something, mezonos..i think) this is why in some frum comunitys when the chosson and kallah come out of the yichud room they are holding hands, its not usur anymore. If the wedding had to be while the kallah was a nidah, they are not allowed to go to the yichud room and they need a shomer untill she goes to the mikveh. But the marriage is not 100 % kosher untill they have sex. The kitzur shulchan aruch says the “yichud” completes the marriage (for a virgin) even if it can not include sex, IF SHE IS A NIDAH OR THERE ARE PEOPLE WALKING IN AND OUT.
In the frum “velt” the chosson and kallah have a circus waiting out side the yichud room for them, they also are usually in an office filled with sforim where it is usur to have sex and if they did have sex there anyway they could not possibly do it al pi halocha (in the dark, naked, missionary, bla bla) So they are permitted to wait untill after the celebration to consumate the marriage.
The Shevah Brochas are for a chosson who married a virgin.. he is to celebrate and rejoice with his kallah, its usur for him to work or do buisiness, he should be besimcha un esen un trinken mit di “choshuve” “heiligeh” “tzadekis” that is his kalleh…his wife.
It is also usur for the chosson to be alone in public, so even when the kallah is not a nidah a shomer is appointed…for the Chossons halochas.
Traditionally the shomer is under bar or bat mitzvah…so as not to violate yichud halochas when the chosson or kallah is with other people or sleeping etc and the “Shomer” is alone with the other spouse. I have heard….. (it could be bube meises,) that anothe reason for the shomer to be under bar or bas mitzveh is so that (before the kallas nida period starts) the newlyweds wont feel embarrassed or uncomftoreble completing the nesacery acts to make there marriage kosher /have sex for “the first time”
Because a child, (pre bar/bas mitzvah) has no knowledge of these requirements or acts and therefore if the couple is alone in there bedroom the “shomer” thinks they are going to sleep and does the same, but with another adult present either one, the chosson or the kallah may be embarrased or shy to have sex and they may find a way/reason to prostpone it, and then the marriage is not complete and the laws of yichud are being broken by the couple being alone in the same room. A shomer has to be above the age of 3, compitent, coherehent, and just there I guess. Besides for the Shomer “protecting” “watching” the chosson” they are also there ( I was told) so that after the first night together , when the kallah is a nidah they wont give in to there taives because even though as I said before the “child”/ “shomer”/ is clueless to the sexual acts that are necesary they can and will “report” noise, sounds, etc that were coming from the couples private room if asked….Some even keep the door open while they sleep as to further prevent “taives”
In the days of the horse and buggy, and Derech eretz the parents used to sit and wait in the next room while the Chosson and kallah were finalizing there marriage. 1) to make sure they did it 2) to make sure the kallah was a virgin.
After the couple had sex they would give the sheet to there parents for inspection, for blood, to assure that they did it, and she was a virgin like she said.
If a couple does not have sex (not due to emergencys or unexpected mishaps) Halochacly they are not married.
There is no “new halocha” that says they can wait till after the shevah brochas or moms birthday or tuesday or wtf ever other clause they can fabricate, the benifit of such a halocha would be …ummmm……..GOURNISHT !
IF THEY DONT DO IT THEY R VIOLATING YICHUD LAWS IF THEY ARE ALONE OR PHYSICAL WITH EACH OTHER.
When the chosson and kallah have sex for the first time, ON THERE WEDDING NIGHT ! the kallah becomes a nidah, because the chosson breakes her hymen and causes her to bleed.
they dont have to stop as soon as he penetrates her ( and causes the bleeding) they are allowed to finish what they started and expected to. when they are done…when the chosson cums (in his kallah) and then pulls out, then it is usur for them to do it again, her nidah period begins.
A kallah does not have to count seven days before she starts counting her 7 clean days she only has to count 4 days (of no blood or stains) before she begins counting her 7 clean days , because the blood that she is releasing is not from her uterus it is the result of sexual penatration, blood is blood so she is tomeh but the halochas are not as harsh for her because it is due to her hymen breaking not her uterous bleeding. (similar laws apply to a pregnant woman who bleeds)
Aliza, sign up for the classes ( u have 2 be engaged to do so ) or shut up. You didnt learn any such drivel in seminary….unless it was catholic.
http://babyboiiluvu.blogspot.com/
It’s not drivel, and yes I learned it in seminary, a Beis Yakov seminary to be specific. What’s your problem? Someone asked for a source, I was told it was a source, so I shared.
If I was wrong, then tell me nicely and constructively – don’t insult me or my education.
Aliza…Look at where ur criticism is coming from…its not you its them.
Why is it always the girls that are fighting.
Hey someone get the hot baby oil, and we can do it Old School style
First of all, kaboles ponim dates all the way back to Yaakov Avinu when Rachel and Leah switched places and Yaakov didnt realize cuz their faces were covered by the vail.
Second-From when does a chosson need a shomer and until when??? I got confused by that part lol!!
And third-Aliza was giving some references on SN about not touching the opposite sex. Nothing to do with Taharas Hamishpacha Halachos!!
SHOMER NEGIA HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH TAHARAS HAMISHPOCAH/NIDA HALOCHAS
The Choson needs a shomer for 7 days after the wedding (the sheva brochas) kitzur shulchan aruch, Vol 4, chapter 149 page13.
Yeah I know, but Aliza was talking about b4 marriage and between men and woman.
I never knew that the couple needs a shomer with them on the night of the wedding!! The shomer has to be there all nights of sheva brachos?? I dont like this!!! LOL!!
a chosson and kallah need a shomer the week bfore their wedding, cuz of the mazikin, and the week after their wedding cuz of kovoid hachoson and kallah that resamble a queen and a king.
They only need a shomer, in case the kallah is nidah, and its suposed to be a kid, that doesnt really understand whats going on… and he doesnt have to sleep in the same room as them as far as i know.
I have a question, why don’t u just open up a sefer, and read the halachos for urself if u are so intrested in knowing the answers, instead of looking for wrong halachos writen why who knows who out of nowhere with no source whatsoever….
I did open up a sefer and I do not just trust anyone on these or any other halachos. If I want to know something I ask someone in those expertise and I open up a sefer to see for myself!! I was just curious to know what she had to say. Not that I would 100% beleive it and take it as she said (no offence LK)!
I am on vacation and dont have access to those spacific sefarim. And the internet wont safice!!
I guess that when the right time comes u’ll have a class and learn the halachos the proper way. its still kwel to know about this stuff bfore… i understand…
K, never mind-I got all my questions answered! Its great to have a really close friend who is a Kallah teacher and has no problem answering my questions!
32 Aliza // Aug 14, 2007 at 8:45 pm
Woah, really, after the first night the wife’s nidda for 2 weeks? Why??? What happened to enjoying the first couple weeks of marriage in… that… way?
Aliza that is the comment I was refering 2.
Lubavitcher…..all of what I wrote came from THE KITZUR SHULCHAN ARUCH !
Fucking read it your self you Talmud Chochum.
Im on vacation…I have a Kitzur with me, every time I go on vacation I make sure to bring whats important to me .
http://leahkleim.blogspot.com/
screw spell check.
LEAH KLEIM // Aug 17, 2007 at 7:29 am
32 Aliza // Aug 14, 2007 at 8:45 pm
Woah, really, after the first night the wife’s nidda for 2 weeks? Why??? What happened to enjoying the first couple weeks of marriage in… that… way?
Aliza that is the comment I was refering 2.
Lubavitcher…..all of what I wrote came from THE KITZUR SHULCHAN ARUCH !
Fucking read it your self you Talmud Chochum.
Im on vacation…I have a Kitzur with me, every time I go on vacation I make sure to bring whats important to me .
http://leahkleim.blogspot.com/
I had a bit of time over shabbos so I thought I would look up some sources for the SN thing cos what a lot of people describe as halacha is really nothing more than conjecture and hearsay.
Firstly, SN is a new term, probably coined by school rabbis or seminaries or something. It becomes a way of judging someones frumkeit, like ‘shomer shabbos’ which is probably where SN got its name from.
The halacha goes like this- There is an issur min hatorah of having relations with certain relatives and also certain other individuals, like a mamzer(ess) and also a niddah. These individuals are known as ‘aroyos’. Someone who has relations with a niddah, or a niddah who enagages willingly in sexual intercourse is chayav kareis and if there are witnesses and a warning, they get 39 malkos.
In Vayikra 18:6 it says ‘lo sikrevu legalos ervah’ which roughly translates as …(to certain women).. you shall not APPROACH to reveal their nakedness.
I did not get a chance to look at the gemora, but I went straight to the Shulchan Aruch which states the following (Even Ha’ezer 20:1) ‘Haba al achas min ha’aroyos derech eivarim oi shechabak venashak veneheneh bikiruv bassar harei zeh lokeh vechashud al ha’aroyos’ which translates as ‘one who comes on to one of the arayos by way of limbs (touches) or one who hugs or kisses or derives pleasure from physical contact, receives malkos and is suspected with regard to forbidden sexual unions.’
All women, if they have not been to the mikveh since their last period, are niddos. Single girls have not been to the mikveh and have not kept the halochos pertaining to niddah, so therefore they are all niddos.
Therefore someone who has intercourse with a single girl, or the girl who engages in it, are chayav kareis, and any touching, kissing etc is a lav and punishable with malkos.
So, SN is NOT a chumrah, it is NOT an invention of modern day fanatical rabbis, it is a lav min hatorah punishable by malkos.
I do not say all this with a feeling of superiority, indeed noone is above temptation, and thank G-d I have never been placed into a situation where I may have been tempted to indulge my baser instincts, but I feel that this is something which needs to be clarified.
Leah kleim – A couple do not need to have sex to be halachically married. They need kiddushin, which is the giving of the ring or something else of value, and nisuin, which is yichud. They are totally and utterly married at that point. In fact even without yichud, she would still need a get if she wanted to leave him. There is no obligation to engage in full blown intercourse on the wedding night.
That was brilliant Tzivo, way to go!!!
And its true, technically all a man needs to do in order to get married is give a girl a gift infront of 2 witnesses and say “Haray At Mikudeshes Li” its that easy and simple!!
YES THEY DO ! READ THE KITZUR ! AND THEY NEED THERE KETUBAH SIGNED AND IN REACH (SO TO SPEAK)/ ACCESSABLE, OR THE MARRIAGE IS NOT FUCKIN’ KOSHER ! EVEN IF THEY LOOSE THE KETUBAH ITS A HUGE GIGANTIC SHAYLA WEATHER ITS OK 2 BE ALONE TOGETHER.
YES THEY DO NEED TO FUCK TO SEAL THE DEAL ! CHAPTER 4 IN THE KITZUR SHULCHAN ARUCH….READ IT !
Yes but once the guy gives a gift and says those words the couple is consitered married and if they want to break it they have to get a GET!! And the girl cant marry a kohen after that! Cuz the couple is consitered to be married!!!!
Did you know that the guy who wrote the Kitzur is my 3 times great grandfather- cool stuff eh.
I think you might have told us that once or twice!! Rabbi Yosef Kayro must be so proud to have such a wonderful great great great grandson like you!!!!
That wasnt R Yosef Kayro….He wrote the Shulchan Aruch….not the kitzur…just a couple hundred year off
Ya, my mistake-I meant Rabbi Shlomo Ganzfried!!! After I wrote that I realized the difference and how it made no sense!! I had no patience correcting it!! But now I did lol!!
LEAH KLEIM- I dont know which version of the kitzur you are using but it aint the regular edition! Chapter 4 is about the laws of going to the toilet and asher yatzar.
However in chapter 148 which deals with the halachos of yichud after kiddushin, the kitzur writes in part 1, ‘the main part of the chuppah is that after the kiddushin they lead the chosson and kallah into a designated room…in order that it should be a complete yichud, and that is the chuppah by which HE ACQUIRES HER IN MARRIAGE AND EFFECTS THE NISUIN. Nuff said.
The Kesubah is a side point which does not affect the validity of the marriage, as MW said, if the kesubah was lost she would still need a get. They may not be allowed to live together, but that does not take away from the fact that halachically they are married.
Hesh – so are you chassidish?
The author of the Kitzur was not chassidish
yeah you are right. I dont know why, but I was under the impression that he was.
yzugkj gmivxbtas scjmvzet mbxafj heda paig ehyxc
Hey, is this grounds for a heter to allow male masturbation, or is preventive medicine not covered in the notion that health care takes precedence over many other things?
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3072021.stm
Not that you’re a rabbinic authority (and certainly, neither am I; I just think the part about don’t spill seed means be careful with whom one shares it, rather than don’t … ).
If you are right SB that creates problems for the yeshiva system for their whole educational system is based on teaching the evils of masturbation.
lol; adaptation and evolution are important for survival of religion, as well as people. More pirkei, w/a side of mussar.
here, I figure you’ll enjoy this as much as I did (completely unrelated, but cool): http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/cat_backpacking.php
hey i love it how we are all learning halachah from a woman who has nudity on her blog
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