So I was reading through last weeks Village Voice which surprisingly had a special section devoted to Gay issues- though I was shocked at such a paper for showing this I read on. I personally would be considered a Democrat- not I did not say liberal- when it comes to Gay Issues- gay pride aint my thing and but why should we deny health insurance and other rights? This is not a political post and as you have noticed I rarely talk politics- maybe that’s because I worked in the field and dont feel like going back there?
Anyway I was shocked to find THIS ARTICLE which talks about the fact that if people are born gay- you would think there would be more openly gay children. This was appalling to me, first of all, do we tell children of their orientation in the first place? Or do we let it naturally develop on its own? The article went on to talk about parents that felt their boys who played with dolls or girls who liked playing in the mud were indeed gay or lesbian. This was also absurd- as if parents were hoping their children were gay or at least could be trained to become gay. After all being gay is a status symbol and quite trendy.
What ever happened to tomboys? How can someone assume their child is gay- if they have feminine tendencies? So they have these gay children conventions where alll the different children who are not necessarly “normal” come and the parents show them off in outfits like the child featured in the article who is all of 4 or 5 and he is dressed like Rob Halford. I love Judas Priest but I would never let my kid dress like that.
Well so much for my rambling- if you missed the first link HERE it is again- tell what you think?
44 responses so far ↓
1 // Jul 2, 2007 at 9:48 pm
i read the first part of the article and it seems ludicrous. sexuality doesnt develop in a person until the teen years, so how can a baby or child be gay? they do not have sexual attractions. secondly, it touched on an issue I have always wondered about–for all the medical technology we have in 2007, have they every tried to come up with a CURE for homosexuality? I know its not PC to consider it a mental illness, but there is all kinds of therapy for bipolar, schizophrenia and other mental illnesses. My conclusion has been that you cant find a solution for something unless you are willing to first admit that you have a PROBLRM instead of calling it an alternative lifestyle or whatever.
2 // Jul 2, 2007 at 9:54 pm
my best guess is that gays are born that way. i mean i can’t imagine someone choosing to do something that to my mind is so unappealing.
on the other hand, it seems to me that there probably are some kids who could go either way. maybe they are the bisexuals or some other kind of sexual fencesitters.
it’s also seems that the typical gay lifestyle is not as healthy as the straight one. Gay men are more promiscuous (the p.c. police can take me out and shoot me for that) and lonely besides its harder for them to get jobs and fit in.
based on the above i would say you can’t control your kids. they may turn out to be gay and you’ll just have to get over it. on the other hand you don’t want to be “exposing him to all his options”. You want your kid to think that straight is normal so he has the incentive to be straight to the degree he has any control over his orientation.
3 // Jul 3, 2007 at 1:01 am
I am having trouble understanding what disturbs you so much about this article. I was raised in a religious environment and attended Yeshiva, and I don’t think children were allowed to “develop” their gender identities “naturally.” You wrote in regard to the article “This was appalling to me, first of all, do we tell children of their orientation in the first place? Or do we let it naturally develop on its own?”
Certainly in an observant Jewish environment we teach students about the role of women in the lives of their husbands. Girls are told from a young age how important it is to marry (a man), and often talk to each other about what their weddings will be like. With scripture aside, could you dispute that there is a cultural push for boys and girls to marry at a young age (early twenties) in the Orthodox Jewish community? Having said that, I think you missed the point of the article. The writer is not suggesting that this “new” idea of the “transgender child” be blown out of proportion, like it is in the main-stream media, rather she is suggesting that we not assume our children are heterosexual. She is talking to actual real-life happy people who are gay to ask them about their experiences as children. She is talking to intelligent scholars who devote their lives to researching topics like these. Your attitude is damaging, misguided, and unsupported. Additionally, you are buying into the idea that homosexuality is just a sexual behavior, and ignoring the nuances of what it means to be gay.
As it says in the article:
“even with the recent push for gay marriage, we still tend to define gayness in terms of having sex—a framework that necessarily excludes kids. But pay attention to the childhood memories of gay adults and you’ll hear plenty of talk about wanting to keep house with a playmate of the same gender, or to marry a same-gender friend—just as straight adults remember wanting to marry a playmate of the opposite gender. Gay or straight, these kids aren’t trying to sex each other up. They’re just imagining future families, or describing their current friendships”
In response to megapixel, I take serious offense to your comments. Particularly the following:
“for all the medical technology we have in 2007, have they every tried to come up with a CURE for homosexuality? I know its not PC to consider it a mental illness, but there is all kinds of therapy for bipolar, schizophrenia and other mental illnesses.”
Mental illnesses such as bipolar and schizophrenia are quite different from homosexuality. We live in a time when the sorrow that some people with mood disorders and schizophrenia suffer is treatable. Homosexuality only becomes a source of sorrow when an individual who is gay is treated the way you propose. Any potential funding for research for finding a cure for homosexuality is better spent on finding more effective treatments for mental illnesses such as bipolar and schizophrenia.
4 // Jul 3, 2007 at 2:22 am
Lf… are you gay?!
that is the only explanation i can think of for you rant
5 // Jul 3, 2007 at 3:00 am
bottom line is the fags are an abomination and a man marrying a man is like a man marrying a pig its disgusting and theres no sensible reasoning behind it other than some fakked up feelings
everyone has choices and for the fruits to turn down women is a slap in g-ds face who created a marvel known as women
6 // Jul 3, 2007 at 5:29 am
Moshe:
that is such a typical Ultra Orthodox answer of ignorance and lack of regards to any sort of scientific research what so ever. It also reinforces the widely held view that many people support what happened to folks like Mathew Shepard etc…
In response to LF:
I take offense because I don’t think that kids should be exploring their sexual orientations at the age of 3. I and I am sure many other folks had no idea what orientation we were until maybe 9 or 10. The article makes it seem as if a few very left wing parents who are trying to condition their children to be gay when in all likelihood they are not.
Undertsandably being gay is not merely about sex and that is blown out of proportion by both sides. The gays have their nasty-disgusting gay pride parades which lead to more hatred amongst us hetro’s. I for one as a straight person would never walk down the street ranting about having sex with women. While on the other hand states- which I dont agree with at all- pass anti-sodomy laws for the sake of crazy evangelical Bushy types.
LF: what are you suggesting? How do you know a child is gay? You probably don’t, so why should they be told if we have no idea. If at age 10 they are holding hands with other boys- is that gay? To me its pretty darn normal. I am sure tons of my guy readers played with dolls as children.
To those of you who think gay is mental illness- where the sons of Noach ill?
7 // Jul 3, 2007 at 6:15 am
I’m pretty sure the writer of the article is a crack, since she’s calling “people with no set gender identities” transgender. Transgender means to take a name of the other gender, take hormones, undergo sex-change surgery, and so forth. Being transgender does not imply any particular sexual orientation.
In any case, regardless of opinion regarding LGBTs in general, I’m not keen on parents trying to deduce their childrens’ orientations at age 6 or so. Children should just be children — parents will have plenty of time to deal with crushes, dating, and whatnot later. This convention thing is really not about “different children” — it is about worried parents. Parents are the ones who constantly wonder if their children might be gay and they want to make sure that if they were, that they would not feel ashamed and depressed about it — the kids are just sitting around happily playing house or whatever, and the complex social politics of this never even cross their minds.
8 // Jul 3, 2007 at 7:10 am
LF - when I read the article and the post I had all the same thoughts as you expressed.. i’m glad you took the time to put them down in writing
Frum hiker, who knows about the sons of noach, but here again, there is a difference between sexual behavior and sexual orientation. today in colleges it is very common for women to hook up with other women, are they gay? bi? or just college kids fitting into mainstream college culture?
megapixel : “sexuality doesnt develop in a person until the teen years”, you say this based on what? i remember having romantic crushes on boys since i was 5-6 yrs old.
9 // Jul 3, 2007 at 10:22 am
There are a number of points I would like to comment on. (Sorry for hyper-focusing on all the stuff I disagree with, but if I commented on the stuff I agree with we would be here beyond forever, as you will soon see.)
Megapixel, I agree with anonymookie. I also had crushes from a very young age. I can’t say that this is NORMAL, I can only comment on my own experience, but to say that it doesn’t happen would be incorrect.
Additionally, it is NOT PC to talk about “cures” or “treatments” for homosexuality, but there are programs for such things out there. Have you not heard of JONAH (Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality - or something like that)? Since around the time that homosexuality was removed from the DSM as a psychological disorder, calling it such has been met with great criticism. And yet the topic remains highly controversial, though in todays liberal society, people with more ‘conservative’ views are hesitant to discuss the topic because its not PC.
Dofan Akuma, what is your source for saying that gay men are more promiscuous than other people? In terms of leading a “healthy” life, as you say, having trouble fitting in and finding jobs, etc. are correlated to BUT NOT CAUSED BY being homosexual. Assuming that openly gay men have a more difficult time finding employment - is this also true for closeted gay men? Not necessarily. And a gay man who is living amongst other gay men will not have trouble fitting in.
When people have a physical impairment, the term used is “disabled.” The term “handicapped” is used when a disabled person’s ability to function is impaired by an external situation. Therefore, a person who is confined to a wheelchair would be considered disabled in all situations, although he would have no problems making his way around his own wheelchair-accessible one-story home. However, if you were to place this person on the top floor of a 34 story walk-up, they would be handicapped by their situation.
We as outsiders do not have the ability to change other people (although they may have the ability to change themselves.) However, we do have the ability to affect their external environments. So to use societal disapproval as a reason against leading a gay lifestyle is fair only if you are willing to support that disapproval (which, by the way, is - to an extent - completely reasonable. In my mind, when people have all these discussions back and forth, it is easy to forget what G-d has to say on the topic. He said not to engage in homosexual relations. Therefore, people should not engage in homosexual relations. End of story. All the discourse on the topic should then be geared towards what our reactions should be when people do not listen to G-d’s commandments. Welcome to our imperfect world. I’ll get to that in a moment or 2. )
Dofan Akuma, you can never control your kids in anything long term, right? (I’m not being sarcastic here.) You can give them guidance, you can try to make your world view their world view, but ultimately you are competing against strong external cultural influences as well as the child’s own FREE WILL.
That having been said:
Based on my own experiences and research, it seems to me that people are born with the ability to “swing either way”. We are born with a full continuum of sexual attraction (i.e. anyone can be sexually attractive.) At a young age, sexual attractiveness has different meaning than once one hits puberty, to be sure, but it is sexual nonetheless.
From a very young age people are socialized to fit into their various cultures. One of these is masculine/feminine culture. (Remember that “sex” is the term used for biological components, and “gender” for the societal/cultural aspect. )
In any given culture, there are various behaviors that are considered acceptable for someone based on their sex. This is the gender role of that society. In any society, people who do not fall fairly neatly into their culturally prescribed role will come into problems and experience some sort of psychological discomfort. (At this point I am going to comment on the Jewish concept of gender, but I would like to clarify and say that I am commenting on the TORAH perspective and NOT on the modern manifestation of Jewish culture which, sadly, has been infiltrated and bastardized by the many cultures it has come in contact with over the centuries and has little resemblance to original Torah Judaism. But we work with what we’ve got. In any case, the beauty of Jewish gender concepts, in my opinion, is that while there are very clearly defined concepts of masculine and feminine, men and women are both expected to engage in both masculine and feminine behavior, dependent on what is appropriate in any given situation. For example, in brief, the male role is to give over raw potential, and the female role is to receive and transform into actual. A female teacher, when speaking to her class, would therefore be engaging in masculine be behavior. Similarly, when a man is a student at a shiur, he is - hopefully - engaging in feminine behavior. He should be listening to what he hears, taking it in, and then incorporating what he has learned into himself in such a way that his behavior is influenced. Because the Torah allows for this interchangeable behavior, there should be less psychological discomfort to go around in a Torah society, as a broader range of behavior is therefore acceptable. Ok, tangent over.)
Included in gender role is expected sexual behavior/orientation. So people get socialized, from a very young age, to be attracted to one sex over another. (I.E. in ancient Greek society, men were socialized to be attracted to young boys. Having relations with women was considered disgusting, and for procreation only. Women were there only to produce the young boys that the older men would then have a relationship with. ) Whatever a given society says is normal, most people will proscribe to that viewpoint, and be attracted accordingly.
There are 2 scenarios that can override the culturally prescribed acceptable behavior.
The first is if that which is presented to be acceptable by society is considered abhorrent from a personal point of view, when one’s personal experiences send messages stronger than the messages being sent by society. To give an extreme example, if a woman is sexually assaulted by a man, she may generalize that experience to all men, in which case no matter what society says (”you are a woman and men are therefore attractive to you”) she will be repelled from men.
In such a situation, there are several possibilities. One is to say that a sexual relationship is out of the question altogether, because men are disgusting and women were never in the picture to begin with. Or she could say “men are out, so I might as well open the door to a sexual relationship with women.” Other possibilities, less relevant since we are talking about how someone would develop same-sex attraction in a heterosexual culture, would include overcoming the aversion to men either with or without growing to find women attractive.
This scenario can be enacted in much more subtle ways, such as a young girl being rejected by boys repeatedly, and finding comfort in the acceptance of other girls. Or, if you’d like to get Freudian, a girl who does not have a good relationship with her father would be a good candidate for lesbianism.)
A second scenario in which someone could reject society’s prescribed gender roles would be someone who finds that they do not fit into society’s expectations very well. Someone who is on the fringe of society will not be bound as strongly by society’s rules and would therefore have less problem deviating from societal norms. Existing on the fringe of society can come from personal feelings of alienation “I am X, society says I should be Y, therefore I will go where it is acceptable for me to be X” OR from being pushed out by others. “You are X, you should be Y, therefore you are not accepted here.”
In either such case, it is possible to abandon society’s rules and go with a different set of rules, or none at all.
Some would argue that people who are in these situations do not ALWAYS turn out gay, therefore the entire theory is implausible. But again, each person will have a slightly different situation, and there are other factors that come into play, like FREE WILL.
LF, as long as there are people who feel attracted to the same sex and want to overcome that, research for helping people to change their sexual orientation is a perfectly valid place to put one’s efforts. Helping people is always a good thing
In addition, back to the original topic of the article, saying that homosexuality is from birth, and using displays of gender-inappropriate behavior in childhood as proof of this is absurd. First of all, many people engage in gender behavior contrary to their biological sex during childhood. Such behavior is natural. Children are all about experimenting with the world, as well as with pushing boundaries and testing limits. Secondly, such behaviors MAY expose children to different reactions from peers as well as from adults that could potentially a - socialize these children to view themselves as homosexual or b - create one of the 2 scenarios discussed above.
Moshe, your post is insulting to women. According to your logic, women should be gay because they are far more attractive than men. As a straight woman, I do not appreciate your insulting my taste, thank you.
Frum Hiker, it is true that we would never march down the street screaming “Hurrah heterosexuality!” But then again we are not living in a society that considers us to be unacceptable. We are not continuously invalidated by our society to that degree. It is understandable that people would want to demand validation in such a way when they are continuously being invalidated. As for your question regarding Noach’s sons, that is too complicated a topic to discuss here, as it brings into question the concepts of mental illness as well as how narrow or broad a definition of homosexuality one wants to take.
Shiphra, you’ve got your head screwed on straight (not meant to be a comment on gay vs. straight) Thank you for being sane!
Anonymookie, well done on your comments to Frumhiker, you handled that in a concise and stylish manner that I seem to be incapable of. Kol hakavod!
10 // Jul 3, 2007 at 11:51 am
wow nice comment
11 // Jul 3, 2007 at 2:26 pm
Moshe- seriously everytime you comment you sound like a bigger jerk than before…
Correct me if im wrong because as usual i dont have much info but i dont recall it saying in the Torah that Homosexuality doesnt exist and its a mental disorder. G-d forbids sodomy, the fact that it is mentioned i think shows that it is some ppls preference, obviously these ppl (homosexuals) exist. The sexual act is assur but the desire obviously exists- being gay is not like a made up thing or a disease.
I am not pro gay, I do think its an abomination.
I actually know gay ppl. We were actually just discussing last week , when they knew they were gay…they both said from childhood- they both knew they were different and liked other boys.
I just want to say to Lf and who?what?- nicely said
And I also have had crushes on boys at like 5-6 years old…i even remeber who…it doesnt mean i knew abt my sexuality…more that i thought they were cute and wanted to hang out with them…i also think sexuality can develope as young as like 7-9
12 // Jul 3, 2007 at 2:42 pm
Who? What?
You have officially been rewarded with the longest and most thought out comment ever posted on this here blog and I appreciate it very much.
Jenn:
Even if your not pro gay it doesn’t mean you have to think its a abomination- seems a bit harsh for me. The torah says to act on your gay tendencies is an abomination. There are some people out there who while they may be gay- they may also be God fearing and VERY determined Jews who may not act on their feelings. Though I have no idea how you would tell someone who happens to be gay, that they can never love or be loved- seems almost impossible.
You know how they say that folks who are retarded are on extremely high madregas because they were brought back to fix something they needed fixing from another life. I wonder if homosexuals are the same way- in that they are on such high levels that they have been given what I would argue- is the hardest test of all. Our nisrynos are NOTHING compared to what a Frum Gay person must go through in order to fulfill all the Mitzvos- think about that.
13 // Jul 3, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Hesh… i meant acting upon it is an abomination…since i dont think its something you can choose i dont think the actual “gayness” is an abomination.
Also what you said abt being on a high madrega…i think thats an interesting point. I guy i went out with told me he had a friend HS whom he still is in touch with who is gay and frum. He said he will not act upon his urges and tries really hard not to have those thoughts…it is extremely hard for him and also very depressing but he says he feels this is a huge nissayon g-d gave him and he will deal and make the best of it
14 // Jul 3, 2007 at 5:57 pm
Seriously guys, why do you need to judge the people so harshly in order to validate your own practice? Gay people have been discriminated against since forever. You’d think as Jews we should be able to sympathize with that. Besides, why do so many of you become so angry about other peoples’ sexual and gender identities anyway? Why not focus intensely on how incorrectly people cut and dispose of their fingernails or rip toilet paper on Shabbos? I think you guys should start an organization that helps people who rip toilet paper on Shabbos overcome their heinous behavior. I think people who bite their nails incorrectly are the source of our society’s failings.
15 // Jul 3, 2007 at 7:13 pm
As an Orthodox Jew, I am upset at the pro-gay voices that are infiltrating my community. Homosexuality is a behavior which can be controlled, just like any other physical urge. Anyone claiming to be both gay and orthodox is a hypocrite.
As for children, they should be taught to act straight from the day of their birth, the same way that they are taught to respect the Shabbos. Would you let your three-year old boy play with an electronic toy on Shabbos? The same should go for dolls.
16 // Jul 3, 2007 at 7:39 pm
mazeartist // Jul 3rd 2007 at 9:20 p07
“The same should go for dolls.”
Are u seriously trying to say that little boys who play with dolls are taught to be gay? IGNORANT
It is normal for little boys like 1-4 yo to play with dolls…i hear maybe if they are older but seriously most little boys i know including my brother played with dolls a little esp if they played with sisterss of similar ages and none exhibit any homesexual tendencies
17 // Jul 3, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Thank you for your kind words guys
Mazeartist, Jenn is right. There is absoultely NOTHING to show that playing with dolls as a child is linked with homosexuality. Your view is contrary to Torah. Dolls have existed for many many centuries, at least as long as tools have existed, I would think. If Hashem had a problem with boys playing with dolls, He would have said so. We mustn’t go adding to the Torah, as that is QUITE assur. Also, how do you feel about boys’ playing with action figures? They are dolls, the difference is in the name only. It becomes purely a matter of what is considered socially acceptable. So IF your goal is to “make” fewer people gay, while you might think that taking a narrow view of gender-appropriate behavior would accomplish this, in actuality it is more likely to have an adverse affect.
I happen to have a number of friends who have sexual-orientation/gender issues. While I don’t doubt that these are legitimate, and come from rather significant causes/experiences, they are infinately complicated by society’s concept of gender. For example. One of these friends, lets call her Mary, HATES the color pink. She thinks it is hideous and feels ridiculous wearing pink. Now, it just so happens that I ALSO hate pink. I would rather wear almost any other color. It makes me give a little inner shudder. Its just plain ugly, in my mind. But because I have a healthy gender concept, I can go around my merry business, knowing that my hatred of pink is just a personal preference, and that is the end of it.
In Mary’s case, however, the fact that she hates pink is just one more fact to support her theory that she is unfeminine and gay. There is NOTHING inherently feminine about the color pink - in fact, my grandmother, who was a seamstress in Europe before the holocaust, told me that when she was growing up, pink was used for boys, and blue for girls. That was the trend. So all these culturally prescribed things that have no inherent value, we let them carry all this weight and people end up being confused, feeling alienated, and having issues, all over nothing. In my mind that is a real shame.
We are supposed to be a light unto the nations, a voice of sanity in an insane world, and instead we hop on the insanity bandwagon without even thinking what consequences our lack of thought might have.
If, I don’t know who in particular you feel is showing anti-gay sentiment and how you would define anti-gay.
The Torah view is to be against homosexual behavior, and to love all jews. Therefore, if a jew engages in such behavior, we must lovingly rebuke him. The behavior is not tolerable (G-d said it is an ABOMINATION, which is not a term that is used lightly) but the person is always our brother/sister and must be treated with love. Even if they don’t change, we must “stay with them in their process” as Rebbetzen Tziporah Heller says. That is our obligation. 2 parts. hate the behavior, love the person. We need both.
I once heard an amazing shiur by a Rabbi Rappoport from somewhere in England (does anyone know where to find him??) on homosexuality. He summed it up quite well. He went through all the sources for homosexual behavior and why it is assur and how bad it is, and then finished by saying that the lives of people who are struggling with this are hard enough, and it is NOT our place to make their lives more difficult.
Perhaps rather than making sure our children play with the ‘right’ toys, we should be educating them in terms of how to treat and think about other jews, how to speak and act with well thought out sensitivity. For example, it would be good to teach children not to use “gay” as an insult. Gay is synonomous with a life of struggle, not necessarily a life of evil, and certainly not a life of uncool stupidity. Mis-educating our children to be prejiduced can only harm us as a nation AND as individuals.
Boy, someone opened up a can of worms when they set me loose on this one.
18 // Jul 3, 2007 at 9:16 pm
Hey thanks once again for another amazing comment. If you want your welcome to comment in the same way on any other posts- you can open up the keg of worms if just a keg was not enough and who knows maybe I will publish your comments as a post.
I definitely agree with the fact that people use gay as an insult. It happens to be that many folks would be so lucky as to have orthodox call them gay instead of “fag” or “pervert” or “sicko”.
19 // Jul 3, 2007 at 9:25 pm
it’s interesting how people are so quick to claim that it is an urge which poeple can easily control and that people who dont are hypocrites, yet in frumsatire’s past post, tons of people have admitted how difficult it is to stay shomer negya until they get married or avoid masterbating..
also.. for those who claim that this is a “mental illness”, if that were the case, wouldnt that absolve them of their halachic obligations?
who?what?
im so impressed with your comments. you have such a healthy, balanced, informed perspective on this. do you work in this field? if you dont, you definitely should..
20 // Jul 3, 2007 at 10:15 pm
By dolls, I meant Barbie, not Ninja Turtles!
21 // Jul 3, 2007 at 11:00 pm
WhoWhat
you asked how i know that gays are more promiscuous.
for one, in general men are more promiscuous.
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/v-print/story/146722.html
when you put two men in a relationship with no countervailing female anchor there is a higher likelihood of an ‘open relationship’.
Secondly, the reason that AIDS is a problem more prevalent amongst gay men is that they are ‘repeat offenders’. the chances of getting AIDS from one incident aren’t that big, it’s when you push your luck that you get it over a broad sample which is why you see statistically higher rates in the gay community. They engage in dangerous behavior too often, similar to drug users who share needles (and EMTs who come into contact with blood often). straight men should also be getting AIDS, but they just can’t get laid as easily.
22 // Jul 3, 2007 at 11:14 pm
while i’m at it, here’s another link
http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=askangelo&id=273
23 // Jul 4, 2007 at 3:09 am
im know to have a rough exterior but the truth is i dont hate gay people i respect them as humans but i abhor the behavior and the twistedness that goes along with it
and honestly if my son told me he was gay id kick his ass out the door
and once in my humble and seemingly worthless opinion gay people who find happyness in their homo lives is evil with a smiley face on it
i know u east coasters are into tolerance and the movie rent but i feel the more that is tolerated the worse it gets
in the 50’s schvartza werent tolerated
now society kisses their asses and the streets are flooded with thugs and welfare crackheads who feel if the cops so much as waggle their fingers at them its racial discrimination
and come on are people really that sick that they try to seek out their childrens oreintation?thats just fakked up
next thing u know gay people will want their own country
but i suppose i could either eliminate radical muslims or fags it would have to the former
its not the people i hate its the quality of life or lack therof they lead
and a gay pride parade in jerusalem??fak that
24 // Jul 4, 2007 at 8:24 am
OK I am not kidding…Moshes comments are so gross that I really feel like although we all want to bash and refute what he says we should really just ignore him
I think acknowledging what he writes is the problem
It isnt even so much the content as how he writes it
watever thats just my opinion
25 // Jul 4, 2007 at 9:30 am
i agree with jenna, frum hiker, i really think you need to ban racism from your blog.
I also agree with lf why we arent people outraged by toilet paper ripping gonna get their heads chopped off by beis din, jews.
We know that youre not guilty unless 2 eidim warn you.
Gay act is not punished unless 2 witnesses warn against the act.
as long as the gay person is not bothering you, what do you care. promiscuity is not a gay problem. lets get upset about those chassidim who visit whores and infect their wives with aids.
lets deal with child molesters in our schools who are protected by our rabbis. lets stop people like moshe who probably steal, lie and cheat and does so because everyone is inferior to him, in business all day, but act holier than though so it makes him feel good.
26 // Jul 4, 2007 at 10:00 am
Why not deal with the issues rather than labling people? No one is perfect. All of these actions that everyone is bringing up are problematic. That one is a problem should not detract from the others.
Dofan Akuma, you are half right. Men are generally more promiscuous than women. But you have not proven gay men to be more promiscuous than straight men. One might say that by vitrue of the fact that their potential partners are men, they would have more opportunities to be promiscuous than a straight man (because women aren’t AS interested as sleeping around) BUT you are forgetting to account for the fact that the marjority of men, promiscuous as they would like to be, are NOT ‘gay’ and therefore not interested. The ‘accepted’ percentage of the population that is gay (I don’t know that I buy into this, but the reported numbers ) are at around 10%. So the math doesn’t necessarily add up.
Does it really make a difference? Homosexual relations are wrong because G-d said so, not because of social problems or whatever else you may point to.
Happywithhislot, we aren’t talking about punishing people (I hope!) for acting upon their same-sex attraction. This is about helping and educating people. And the general population needs to be educated just as much as the gay jewish community or whatever. Homosexuality (in behavior) is just as much a problem as people who don’t keep shabbos or people who visit whores and infect their wives with aids. (By the way, how can you say “chassidim who visit whores and infect their wives with aids”? This behavior doesn’t have anything to do with people who identify as chassidim any more than it does jews in general, or people with brown eyes, or …anything. Go with “men” or “people” if anything but don’t go attacking specific groups with no particular basis. Its loshon hara and ALSO assur.) But I personally don’t know any people who sleep with whores and infect their wives with aids. I DO know people who don’t keep shabbos, and I DO know people who identify as gay. The thing is that people who don’t keep shabbos are treated, generally speaking, with more sanity than people who identify as gay. So we have to try and spread the sanity. (NOT to the exclusion of other things.)
anonymookie and frumhiker, thanks guys. I don’t work in this field but I am considering it for the future. I don’t think its worth pursuing until I’m married, because honestly, when you’re ‘older’ (read = over 20) and not married, if you deal with something like this, people are going to think you have a personal agenda and shut you up fast.
Granted, I DO have a personal agenda, I want people to use their brains, but I think things can get misconstrued.
And as a bonus, I could totally ruin my chances of finding a shidduch
27 // Jul 4, 2007 at 1:03 pm
without reading any of the comments i can say that all the problems in this world are because of the freakin LIBERALS!! i hate their guts hypocritical members of society who have no idea of the logical stance to take on an issue. all they need to hear is that conservatives are against it and so they are for it. why cant they just live and let live??? why do they have to push their ideas and oppninons onto everyone lse?? which is funny when u think of it because live and let live is kind of their motto but they wont let their kids grow up normally without teaching them at 4 years old about sexual orentation and telling their four year old boys who like a security blanket that they must be gay. i should point out here that most 4 year old kids still have not developed hormones towards any gender….. OISH!
28 // Jul 4, 2007 at 1:09 pm
did u read moshes second comment? are u a liberal who thinks that since those por african americans were enslave fifty yeasr ago its ok for them all to be haning out on the streets not even TRYING to get a job because they can earn enough on welfare and lawsuits??? where do you live dear? it seems like in one big fat bubble. look around you. everyone is messed up but by tolerating it and saying its ok to promote such laziness ur destorying society’s standards. what happened to shame? why is everything so out in the open nowadays? something is definitly wrong with this world. why doesnt anyone blush anymore?
29 // Jul 4, 2007 at 6:15 pm
hyprocrite
yeah, kollel guys arent on welfare doing nothing.
clean our own house before complaining about others.
all the complaining is a deflection of our own anger for having to pay ridiculously high tuitions, high price for glatt when its a meaningless chumra, and a myriad of ridiculous other chumras that are meant to simply deflect us from the weakness of our leaders.
30 // Jul 4, 2007 at 6:42 pm
happy - duh! his name IS hypocrite!!!
and btw its you who sounds like you’ve got an agenda going on. Loadsa anger and spite bubbling there eh?
31 // Jul 4, 2007 at 6:53 pm
oh well
im not interested in letting hyprocrite go unanswered. they need to see themselves in the mirror.
our own house is not in order and all these people see is how horrible everyone else is.
32 // Jul 4, 2007 at 8:42 pm
See the problem is that equal rights for everyone regardless of who they choose to have sex with should not be a political issue. Why should I be able to tell someone what they can and cannot do with their own body as long as they aren’t hurting anyone else?
The folks who think its merely a Liberal issue are very ignorant- give me a good reason- and I dont want to hear some torah-morals crap answer why Gays should not receive equal rights as other citizens. The torah answer does not fly because what right do we have to force OUR religion on someone who may not be of the same religion. If we begin to do this sort of thing we will eventually end up like some Muslim theocracy.
33 // Jul 4, 2007 at 9:42 pm
I agree with you Frum Hiker that pple shouldnt have their rights taken away based on who (or what lol) they sleep with. Even criminals still have their rights to a degree. But I think that if laws for gay marriages and activity are passed then it will have a negative and greater affect on on the Jewish communities. If pro gay laws are passed then it will be harder to give the proper help to the jewish/gay pple in our communities. Since it is against the Torah we should help them “do the right thing” but if what they are doing is democraticly correct then they wont want to seek help and it can turn into being concitered discriminant and against the law if we try to help them. Plus if the rest of the world accepts it as ok then the jewish world will also except it. Pple like to be democraticly correct more then being religiously correct.
34 // Jul 4, 2007 at 9:52 pm
all i have to say is LOL. im laughing at all u HYPOCRITES out there who are sitting on you tuchuses doing nothing about it except ranting. this of course labels me as a hypocrite too but hey, i already labled myself as that. now for all those of you, especially happy, who think we should clean our own house first, your absolutly right. but it’d be nice to have an organized lot to dump your garbage in, eh?
35 // Jul 5, 2007 at 6:43 am
Passerby, I agree that the more these things become accepted in the secular community, the more acceptable they will become in the frum community. Thats a legitimate problem.
Then there is also - read the whole post before you get in a tizzy, but - if G-d says something is assur to someone, that means it is damaging to them and they should stay away. Eating treif is only assur to jews, meaning it damages jews in a way that it does NOT damage non-jews. However, homosexuality is forbidden in the Torah for jews and non-jews alike. Meaning, it’s damaging for both! If I think something is going to hurt you, even if you see no problem with it, I’m not going to help you down that harmful path.
Also, what is up with the rights and benefits base on who you sleep with? That is bringing too much of the bedroom into the public sphere. These rights are supposed to be about the family unit. Now, we can go with a REAL family unit (i.e. a married hetero couple…real goes by Torah standards, Hashem gets to call the shots on what makes up objective reality since He MADE reality) or by the imagined family unit of whatever people feel. That is a legitimate option, but if we do things that way then it has to be carried through all the way. That means that if I am an adult, single, no longer under my parents health insurance, lets say, and I have some dear friends who I hold to be as close as as sisters, and we decide to live together and be each others nuclear family, WE should get family rights as well.
By the way just to add one more thing for Dofan Akuma here, the reason that gay men tend to have a higher risk for getting AIDS is because of the anatomy related to their physical encounters. Without getting too graphic, (and please, lets keep it that way!) certain areas of your body were NOT created to stretch to that degree, so micro tears in the skin tissue are inevitable, making it far more likely that bodily fluids are shared and thus increasing susceptibility to disease.
Women were meant to have babies (with intimidatingly big sculls) and are therefore able to stretch far more than…whatever, you get the idea. Done here. For now, anyway. Frumhiker, I don’t rant as well on topics I don’t feel as strongly about. Give me some good material and I’ll see what I can do.
36 // Jul 5, 2007 at 2:33 pm
Gay children are fun! You can poke them and tease them and they won’t file a lawsuit!!
Every major food manufacturer has already put millions of rainbow colored candy/ice pops/food into production!
This article reminds me of a joke.
“I once walked into a chassidish yeshiva dorm, when all of a sudden a condom flew by at rockets speeds, I ducked and asked moishe - what was that? - he says, oh nothing - yoeli farted!”
“Moishe and Yoely are walking on Main St. when moshe points accross the street and says “WOW, shes hot!!!” - to which Yoeli replies: “Yeah, Shame its not a guy!”
37 // Jul 5, 2007 at 3:43 pm
Dude, thank you for that amazing jokes
38 // Jul 5, 2007 at 4:55 pm
who?what?
“to add one more thing for Dofan Akuma here, the reason that gay men tend to have a higher risk for getting AIDS is because of the anatomy related to their physical encounters. Without getting too graphic, (and please, lets keep it that way!) certain areas of your body were NOT created to stretch to that degree, so micro tears in the skin tissue are inevitable, making it far more likely that bodily fluids are shared and thus increasing susceptibility to disease.”
listen sweetcakes, i was going to let this drop since you had given me a ‘half right’ a couple of comments ago. but since you insist let me just say that in normal condomless ‘relations’ there will be an exchange of fluids regardless of the particular orifice employed (don’t want to get too close the graphic line here but Borat has been known to refer to this phenomenon as a ‘liquid explosion’).
39 // Jul 5, 2007 at 6:18 pm
I will consult someone in the medical profession as to the biology of the situation and get back to you. My way still makes sense but I am open to the possibility that I am WRONG…it has happened before and I’m sure this won’t be the last time.
Thanks for, erm, controlling yourself. I appreciate it.
40 // Jul 6, 2007 at 2:05 am
wow jenn a non conformist such as myself comes along and expresses his views on a matter and all of a sudden im the bad guy
gays cant reproduce biological families unless they bring in a member of the opposite sex (gasp!!!) to make it happen
in my not so valued opinion i feel gay people are selfish and vain and mostly care about themselves and lack a true family spirit probably a great reason why jewish law prohibits it gay couples cannot come close to the potential of family life a straight couple has
ok jenn?? this post was for u a lil more dressed up a little less ranting? now sip ur latte plug in ur ipod eat ur sushi and just take it ez
41 // Jul 23, 2007 at 1:48 am
Just chanced upon this website. Interesting topic.
42 // Jul 23, 2007 at 1:54 am
Some of the other authors of the above posts mentioned certain threads that are similar to what I’m writing. I was told by a psychologist that sexuality and homosexuality is along a spectrum. Some people are straight. Some people are totally gay. And some people are some other number. It’s a very scandolous thing to say that some people may have certain attraction to those of their own gender. But I think that if you look around and ask people they will admit (in private of course) that they have thoughts about other girls (I’m now talking about females). I don’t think that they act on them but you got to just accept it. I have nothing else to say.
43 // Jul 23, 2007 at 3:00 pm
We men always know that all gilrs love to get it on, thanks for backing us up oria.
44 frumfunkyfabslightlyeidel // Oct 21, 2007 at 5:16 am
http://www.chiefrabbi.org/resources/docs/jismhomo.html
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