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What type of negiah do you keep???

Shomer Negiah categories:

Many people I know keep negiah, they brave the dark waters of celibacy and refrain from touching the opposite sex until marriage. They piss and moan about how they could be getting some and how much they miss their sex filled college days and so on. All of the sudden these same people are seen hugging women, sometimes kissing them on the cheek and I even get these random late night phone calls from supposedly shomer negiah folks who just got some action. Based upon my experiences there are many sub-categories within the folks who claim to keep negiah.

SUO- shomer until opportunity:
This crowd is very common I have noticed, these are the folks who are 100% shomer until they wind up at some after work party with some hottie hitting on them. The second the women show interest their once fervent stance on keeping negiah is lost to the prospect of some steamy action. I think that many of these folks are the types that have hooked up with girls/guys in the past and know how good it can be. These SOU’s tend to not be the lifelong negiah types. The folks who tend to be SOU’s are usually older singles, Modern Orthodox Machmir, flexidox and yeshiva rebels who frummed out in Israel- sorta.

Shomer N’fooling Around:
These folks are shomer when it comes to getting intimate, but when it comes to having folks sit next to them, put their arms around them or give them hugs they see no problem with this. Also in this crowd are those folks that think sleeping in the same bed with their “good friend” of the opposite sex- is no problem at all and they are just friends. The folks in this crowd tend to be from Modern Orthodox Liberal homes that brought them up in a very mixed yet protected lifestyle. Touching is not bad before marriage but intimacy is.

SUE- shomer until engaged:

I can definitely relate to this category, I was engaged after all and have come to the conclusion that unless you live in a community with separate sidewalks for men and women- you have probably experienced this sort of thing. I have spoken to many friends of mine many of whom are full time Kollel and Rebbe types who have confirmed my suspicions. Most of them deny getting all hot and steamy in the back seat of their blue and wood paneled Chevy wagons held with bungee cords, but they do admit to holding hands and hugging in dark corners of the top floor of the midtown Marriott. I guess if you were shomer until you got enaged you have to be higher then the MO-dox

SBD- Shomer by default:

If you could get some you probably would not be shomer, but since your too stupid to figure out how to use chat rooms, the casual encounter ads on craigslist and the poking mechanism on facebook you have resigned yourself to a life of free porn and staring at women over the mechitza. This category is filled up by nerdy and ugly folks who think they don’t have a chance in the world to get some action. Let me tell you something, anyone can get some if they tried just a little. These are the type of folks that never speak up when their friends are conversing with someone from the opposite sex and usually their friends are too rude to introduce them.

SCT- Shomer cock tease:
I know its hard to believe that this exists but it does. Some women just love to see men squirm and wonder how such beauty could be saved for some guy in the near future. These women tend to be future hot chanie and sheitle hooker types unless they already are. They prance around all hot and done up, yet they act like they are all frum by telling you they are shomer- almost spitting it in your face in fact.

SIP- Shomer in public:
They act shomer, but didn’t you just see them hug that person or give them one of those reassuring massages that is basically a come on without actually doing anything to frontal. I know plenty of these folks, they are with their girl/boy friends and they don’t touch, they even sit a little away from each other to act all frum and then boom- a casual look under the table will reveal all hell is going on under there. Footsie aint like it was when I was growing up.

ESN- extreme shomer negia:
I had this Rebbe in high school who would clear a line of people whenever him or his wife had to exit shull. These are the types that slam your change down on the counter rather them drop it in your hand. These types also avoid eye contact as if that would make them want to jump your bones and they try and act as rude as possible so you don’t try and do anything stupid. These folks tend to identify with the charedi movement and agree with the Saudis on many of their shomer negiah policies besides the honor killing stuff. These people also tend to drink lots of mountain dew and ride skateboards for fear of walking on the same ground as the opposite sex.

SBHS- shomer besides hand shakes:

Classic modern orthodoxy and even some of the frummier types will shake a woman’s hand when the time calls for it. I don’t think there is anything wrong with it. As Tupac says in the song “you wonder why they call you bitch- business strictly business.”

SUD- shomer unless drunk:
I have a friend who would hook up with girls at parties when he got drunk. He would call me up and tell me he did something stupid and I knew exactly what it was, then he would learn some mussar and go about his business with that feeling of guilt they pound into you during yeshiva.

MSN- Militant Shomer Negiah:

Does your town have one of those Vaad Hatznius organizations that believes in threatening people because they may not keep negiah? Have you heard of guys/gals being beat up because they were seen talking to each other? Separate halls at weddings for the men and women since the Berlin Wall style mechitza’s are just not enough? When all else fails, the charedim take to the streets to protest some sort of event in which guys/gals may see each other. MSN folks are the type who would rather see intermarriage then have groups like NCSY and any other sort of coed programs. They also tend to believe in complete seperation unless its child conceiving time, basically the women slaves over the child rearing and food making while the man slaves over a gemara or diamond counter. Looking at the opposite sex is counted as breaking shomer negiah.

SUH- shomer until horny:

These are my favorites, the folks who are hardcore shomer until they cant take the pressure anymore. I am sure many of you may feel the same way. In fact I was at the Homowack with my father a few years ago and I met two single girls in their upper 20s. We got into a conversation about being shomer negiah and they revealed that besides holding hands they, like good bais yaakov girls had never touched a guy. They also revealed that they had made a pact, not unlike the one in the first American Pie, in which they had both agreed to go out and have sex if they weren’t married by 30, I said why wait? They haven’t contacted me as of yet. Since many bloggers happen to be single women I am curious if many of them feel this way. I also wonder about those frum older singles- are they similar to the 40 year old virgin movie?

{ 216 comments… add one }
  • June 12, 2007, 11:28 PM

    Haha, this post is ridiculously true. I myself don’t even know which way is the correct way to act, but I went from a SIP to a SUE to a SBHS (that’s a story of it’s own). Life’s confusing sometimes.

  • June 13, 2007, 3:35 AM

    As far as women are concerned, the honest answers will probably be posted as anonymous. The women who will post that they are 100% shomer might give their name, but I am pretty sure they are lying about their shomer status. Some women might comment on my comment by saying “oh we are not girls like that”. Those who say this are afraid of being labeled as whores who sleep around. I am pretty sure that most young frummies at the very least have kissed someone or fondled with them even if they did not sleep with them.

    Everyone gets horny and it’s natural that men and women are attracted to each other.I don’t believe a frum guy if he tells me he has been shomer for 3 or 5 or 10 years. I don’t believe a frum girl either unless she is a FFB who has never seen a man in his underwear. Those who lie about their shomer status, I am not sure who they are fooling, cause it’s not hard to figure out who is shomer and who is not.

  • June 13, 2007, 3:38 AM

    jewish girl i work with claims to be shomer

    one day she comes in with a narsty cold sore on her lip

    i wonder if she became shomer after the herpes??

    • beverly March 11, 2010, 4:40 PM

      herpes can be transmitted in many ways-sharing a drink, public water fountains, using sample makeup in department stores, etc. It’s not a tell-tale sign of touching/kissing/whatever a man.

  • June 13, 2007, 5:19 AM

    moshe // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06
    i wonder if she became shomer after the herpes??
    LOOL Moshe!

  • June 13, 2007, 5:57 AM

    Great minds think alike- LOL- it’s becoming my
    trade-mark saying. Check out my post “How
    far will you go to be shomer?”

  • June 13, 2007, 7:40 AM

    I just thought of a new category during davening- militant shomer! It is being written right now.

  • June 13, 2007, 8:16 AM

    Excellent post.

  • June 13, 2007, 8:19 AM

    One thing I noticed about shomer negeah people is that they tend to touch people of the same sex A LOT and fairly intimately. It really borders on PDA at times.

  • June 13, 2007, 8:23 AM

    Hmm, maybe I don’t know people well enough yet in the community I go to school, but as far as I know they’re all keeping Shomer Negia exactly the way they should be.

    I, on the other hand, have been keeping it pretty well since I started becoming religious. Maybe that’s cuz I don’t hang out with guys anymore(I trty not to, but if the opportunity ame up I wouldn’t really be against it).

    I didn’t even really do much before becoming religious, either. Farthest I ever went was a hug. How sad, eh?

  • June 13, 2007, 8:24 AM

    Hey Guys! Hesh…This is a great one…Im not sure what to even say because its all so true- it doesnt even need commenting. Imnot even sure what category i fall into but i will say many many more BY and BK type girls than anyone thinks are not shomer and many have had sex (most say they are “not sure”)- Its not so taboo any more

  • June 13, 2007, 9:38 AM

    I luv this post…i think the one shomer you forgot is MSN after dark, in Atlantic city, Las Vegas, Ect….
    for all those that dont know what Im talking about, the next time you find yourself at a strip club and turn to find a guy with a baseball hat with payot stuffed underneath siting next to you..tha MSN looking for a minyan for mincha in the wrong place!!!

  • June 13, 2007, 9:39 AM


    Great list

    I wish you had focused more on the UWS scene where literally everyone is sleeping around with everyone else, and yet an overwhelming number of those same people consider themselves Ortho.

    Go to Parlour on Saturday night and check it out…

    • J October 22, 2017, 1:17 PM

      Do the girls use the mikveh?

  • June 13, 2007, 9:53 AM

    Thumbs up, great work! So true, just hysterical, LMTO!:)

  • June 13, 2007, 10:07 AM

    Its true how you cant tell who is shomer and who is not. There are plenty of fakers out there and I sometimes cant stand walking in the street. I am a full on shomer, and I know that is the right thing. But seriously, I get looks all the time and I would be sick to my stomach if I knew what these guys on the street are thinking. Its sad but they could look like a total frummy with the entire chasidish garb but they would be doing g-d knows what “after dark”! Dont be fooled by the way they dress or talk cuz their are plenty of fakers out there, and they could be doing the sickest things. I think that if you are not shomer then you shouldnt fake it, and dont go around town looking and acting like the frumest person out there but in reality you are the complete opposite!

  • June 13, 2007, 10:15 AM

    Great post!

    I would say… “Shomer N’fooling Around,” although I wouldn’t call it that. 😀 I dance ballroom competitively, but having feelings for your partner is almost taboo (unless, of course, s/he is your spouse). I’m also overly touchy-feely with gay guys, who are well-represented in the dance community.

  • June 13, 2007, 10:17 AM

    so im curious… if everyone is doing it, and everyone knows that everyone is doing it, and everyone is finding it less and less taboo to do it.. does that mean that everyone thinks its fine to be doing it? or is everyone doing it despite what they believe in?

    it = not being shomer negya
    everyone = very big generalization

  • June 13, 2007, 10:25 AM

    SUIR. Shomer Until In Relationship. This is the guy/girl who’s been brought up that shomer negia is the proper way. In fact, they think everyone in the orthodox world is shomer negia. Not being shomer is for bums. They keep this up into their dating life – until they actually get in a relationship. The first time they go out with someone for more than 5 or 6 dates, it’s over. Shomer what?

  • June 13, 2007, 10:38 AM

    i have a question.. for those of you who agree with s.n., how do you hold yourself back when you read posts like these, when it sounds like no one else is keeping it? there’s strength in numbers, but when you feel like you’re the only one struggling, you lose that strength. no one wants to be the martyr, the only one buying into the whole thing. and if its impossible for everyone else, who am i to think i can do it? so im asking you Frumsatire, or anyone else… how do those who want to stay shomer keep at it when everyone else seems to be taking it so lightly?

  • June 13, 2007, 10:39 AM

    oh and of course great post, and dead on accurate.. but satire is meant to be thought provoking.. so… it got me thinking, sorry 🙂

  • June 13, 2007, 10:43 AM

    Anonymookie- truthfully i dont think people really care either way or have very strong beliefs. (this is not talking about EVERYONE-this is a generalization). Im a BK girl whose group of close friends all went to BK BYs or similar yeshiva type schools. Most of my friends were not shomer – to varying degrees- 3rd base generally tho. I mean I cant begin to count how many girls I know who arentwerent shomer. I get the impression people just dont think its a big deal and just dont care and never really thought about it in a spiritual is it right is it wrong context- you just do it

  • June 13, 2007, 10:45 AM

    Josh: I cannot mention the city where this happened, but in a city I visit quite frequently many of the girls that were shomer negia during high school decided to hook up with each other and everyone either saw it(including me) or heard about it. Its pretty much a famous event in this city- which pains me to hold back the name.

    Aliza: I think many of these people will become the SUE shomer until engaged. Of course many people will end up being 100% until marriage but I have yet to find them.

    Yumma: I can definately edit to suit your needs but you should check out this post which may already contain what you are looking for. It was basically an expose on MODERN orthodox. http://frumsatire.wordpress.com/2007/02/21/modern-orthodox-stereotyping-and-judging/

    Shipgra: I know exactly what you mean, I in fact have met many baal teshuva’s in similar situations, where they are in theater or dancers and that is the one thing they cannot give up. Dancing is also way different when its not the shaking your booty on some guys pecker in the club.

  • June 13, 2007, 10:47 AM

    For all of those who dont beleive that Brooklyn is the center of the earth Jenn is talking about Brooklyn Bais Yaakov schools.

  • June 13, 2007, 10:52 AM

    anonym00kie // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06

    “i have a question.. for those of you who agree with s.n., how do you hold yourself back when you read posts like these, when it sounds like no one else is keeping it? ”

    before i give an answer- where u always shomer if i may ask?

  • June 13, 2007, 10:55 AM

    It happens to be the fact that some folks in more progressive circles that have talked about mikvah for single women who were going to be sexually active anyway- shows that in fact some of the people are not shomer actually care an iota about taharas mishpacha.

    I would definately put myself in the category of shomer negia that is. I am to a certain degree, I would never profess to be a master. When I was engaged I was not, when an old lady wants to pinch my cheek I let them, when my old friends of the family who are women go in for the hug- I don’t put up a piece of cardboard to block them.

    Even if you have strong beliefs and I generally do, I think that many people focus on much more external and communal issues like shabbos and kosher.

    Shomer negia is also tough because- besides being hard, sex and relationship is a natural need for humans- and there comes a point when abstaining is humanly impossible unless you are nuts.

    I happen to embrace negia since I was almost married- and you know why? The only reason I keep negia now- is because prior to being engaged- I had never actually touched someone I loved- then when you do- you realize that touching for the sake of sex or other non loving things SUCKS, thats right- there is no comparison and I think I only came to that realization after being not shomer negia with my fiance.

    Kind of crazy eh, I also think that the Lord puts many nisrynos in front of folks that are tough, like a hot girl all over you at some bar mitzvah- I probably would fail that challenge to tell the truth- though it hasn’t happened yet.

  • June 13, 2007, 10:58 AM

    Great post. I’m SBSH and I also hug my nieces/aunts & if there is no escape, cousins (example: when my cousin’s duaghter insisted I hug my cousin). That would be another category – SBMSB – shomer but maintains shalom bayis.


    As for staying SN, I always tell myself if I don’t keep it, someday, somehow it’s going to come around and bite me in the ass big time. You can eat a piece of chazer in the middle of no where and no one else will know, but to not be SN involves someone else who has a mouth that talks. It’s kind of sick that some people get worked up over whether what they put in their stomach is kosher beyond reproach, but will go on tfillin dates. And of course you can’t ask anyone if they fooled around because you would be implying that they’re hypocrits and sluts (this applies to both men and women) and no frum person could ever be a slut or a hypocrit. I haven’t met one yet, have you?

  • June 13, 2007, 11:19 AM

    jennthejewess – not being shomer, and not caring aren’t the same thing. i think we can agree that many poeple arent shomer, but i dont think we have any idea how many care. i think lots of people care – a lot- but have a hard time holding back…
    (and btw i’m a bt..)

    frumbutwithit – i understand why someone wants to be s.n. but my question is, how do posts and comments like this not weaken your determination to do what’s right?

    adam – why should it be worse to go on a tfillin date than to eat kfc?

  • June 13, 2007, 11:39 AM

    Anonymookie- I only asked because If it was someone who never touched a guy or was intimate I would tell them that the way you hold back is by knowing its not worth it. Maybe you dont agree with me but unless your in a really serious relationship I really feel it it not worth it and it is serious not as “good” (fooling around not sex-i dont know about that) as one would think. I find girls almost always get very emotionally involved- usually much more quickly and more deeply than the guys and almost always get hurt because of this.
    Also the idea that some people have of Ill just do such and such once -to get it out of my system- does not work. Usually one thing leads to another and once you start you want it more.If anyone is interested i can elaborate on all thisbut im not going to without a request.
    But to someone who has not always been shomer i dont really know what to say because maybe thier experieces were good and other stuff is involved. All i can say is to be strong and try to remeber everything how it actually was and not how you are remembering it (we tend to only remember the good parts of the past).
    As usual this is just MYopinions and feelings

  • June 13, 2007, 12:53 PM

    IF someone is a ffb or bt, I’ve been witness to the hush hush whispers that turn into CRAZY rumors about people that went from the hugging in public or on shabbatons, or at shul, to full out sex and fooling around. This may or may not have occurred. I don’t know, (don’t really care–) but people like to talk. so, that’s why people put on the front of being shomer. Cuz they know what they would assume if they saw someone who ‘looks’ frum touching someone in public.

    HESH MAN — i have to say that MOST people I believe are the shomer until opportunity…whether that be a relationship, fiance, hook up just for starbucks**, whatever….

    I have to say….if you want to be true to shomer. keep VERY VERY Strict yichud laws!!!!

  • June 13, 2007, 12:53 PM

    Interesting post. Oh and, fyi, you can get oral herpes without breaking shomer negia. Babies have been known to pass it in daycare by sharing teething rings.

  • June 13, 2007, 1:03 PM


    That actually is a pretty funny post.

    I think where you are wrong about Negiah is that, while it is extra special to touch someone you have real feelings for, that is not the way the Negiah concept is taught. Touching equals sex at this point, at least in some yeshivas. And while that works to set up boundaries in your youth, when you get older it just seems ridiculous. Also, when you get older and realize, like evrything else, the world is never as black and white as you were taught but is grey everyhwere, the idea that you should not touch or be touched–a basic human connection–becomes harder to accept, even by those more yeshivish

  • June 13, 2007, 1:04 PM

    Dude rocking post, I am all for the SJTGS- Shomer just to get some. Exactly like it sounds, tell some frummy chick your shomer and then bam- you get all lovey dubby and hook that shit up.

    I know plenty of guys think like this since I always see them hitting on girls who made it very clear that they are shomer.

  • June 13, 2007, 1:07 PM

    Yumma: Are you aware that there is a city called Yuma- its in the southwest?
    I agree with you completely- and then to make it worse you cant even touch yourself, and that topic will be for another time.

    Mark: I think that what you are saying is actually true, I in fact used to find myself still hoping that the girl I was courting, though claiming to be shomer, would in fact break down and proclaim her love for me with some action.

  • June 13, 2007, 1:26 PM

    very intersting and thanks for sharing your own xperiences and insights, i’m impressed by your attitude.

  • June 13, 2007, 1:47 PM

    Mark- so sick but so true i knew girls who LOVED to try to “break” guys who were shomer

  • June 13, 2007, 2:32 PM

    jennthejewess // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06
    Mark- so sick but so true i knew girls who LOVED to try to “break” guys who were shomer

    @Jenn. Maybe the boys weren’t shomer to start with. I guess no one is anyone’s victim. People can say no to temptation if they want to. It’s not like we are animals and can’t control ourselves if someone tries to seduce us, really.

    @Hesh, thanks for mentioning the JOC-Jewish Outdoors Club, as I wasn’t aware of their existence. I am gonna try to hook up with them when I am in NY and most definitely go hiking and rock climbing with them.

  • June 13, 2007, 4:33 PM

    You left out one catagory-I am an FFB Bais Yaakov type of girl who is shomer Negia all the way and is perfectly fine with it. I am extremely open minded and does not live in a box. My family is also normal and all keep SN. I am an SN because I am a g-d fearing jew and knows that it is completely against the Torah to be anything else-until marriage of course, then its only you and your spouse. That is how it is sapposed to be. I never had a problem with it cuz that is how I was brought up and it never entered my mind that I could do otherwise. I know it is wrong and I am fine with it. I do like guys and think they are fun to talk to and hang out with, but I dont because it is very likely that there would be attraction and I dont want it to come to that if I know it is not for marriage purposes. (It anyway says in the Gemara that 2 pple can not go out on a date if it is not for marriage purposes!) I do talk to guys like my brothers freinds or friends brothers if they are around but I dont “flirt” with them. I am in “shidduchim” and I want to get married but I have no teiyva for anything else that is meaningless and that has no future. There are no gray areas on this topic. It IS all black and white, and I dont know where everyone comes off thinking it is okay to not be an SN. There are NO loopholes!!

  • June 13, 2007, 4:39 PM

    Actually women do have a loop hole. It is called the good old trusty detachable shower hose. There is no halachic prohibition against women and masturbation.

    Real God fearing/loving folks are hard to find, I fear God, but I always wonder who actually fears and loves him to the point that they realize everything they do is being watched under a close lens. This of course would mean that someone had no tests and nisrynos- almost impossible.

    Shomer negia is not my test, I think I have a harder time with loshon horah which arguably is more important as well as learning torah when I can.

  • June 13, 2007, 4:58 PM

    I dont agree that loshon hora is more important then SN cuz most mitsvos and aveiros were made around this topic and how to avoid it. Also, real g-d fearing jews dont look for loopholes in this area cuz they know it is not exactly what Hashem wants us to be doing. I dont mean to sound all high ‘n mighty or fake but I am one of those who fear and love hashem all at the same time and know I am being watched at all times, but I deffinatly have nisronos and am constantly being tested. Mine are actually on bitachon that everything that happens in this world is for the good and everything will work out. But whatever the case, I still cant beleive pple think that not being SN is ok, because it is not! It is a complete aveira!

  • June 13, 2007, 5:12 PM

    I don’t think people believe its ok, I think that when your caught in the moment many people start to justify or just throw it out of their minds. Like they know its wrong but they are going to do it anyway.

    What about things like hair covering that is right in the torah, in fact it was in it a few weeks ago- people love to justify being lenient on that losasey by saying its for fanatics. But that is plain to see and hardly deniable like other laws.

  • June 13, 2007, 5:54 PM

    B”H The last time I shook a woman’s hand was 8 yrs. ago. She offered it to me to congratulate me on something, and I believe it would’ve embarrassed her if didn’t just quickly take it, and not make a big deal out of it. She’s not religious, and it was a quick action done out of excitement. When “religious” women, who make a big issue of being religious get too close or want to sit next to me on the bus, I make a big deal out of it,…subtly. I don’t like hypocrisy. I try to be patient and tolerant with non-religious in non-religious areas.

  • June 13, 2007, 6:44 PM

    Nice thread, people!

    Um, I guess I’m ..um… well, People who know me read this blog but whatever, I’m pretty open about stuff.

    I wasn’t Shomer for many years, and never pretended to be.

    Then I decided to take a break from things for awhile and stayed celibate for about 3 years before I got married.

    It’s easy to proclaim S.N. ,those who aren’t sexy but I get hit on all the time , even while I wear my wedding ring.

    It’s a real Nisayon to be Shomer and people should not proclaim it to be easy and all like M.W.

    During the time that I was celibate (note: not shomer, as I always shake hands and kiss relatives etc) I still had girls hunting me down and it was brutal.

    So stop be self righteous about it S.N. and aknowledge that not everyone is a frumpy dawg .

  • June 13, 2007, 6:49 PM

    Very good Ben-Yehuda.
    Frumbutwithit-Those pple who try not to think about it are not fully g-d fearing because they are justifying the fact that hashem is not there and cant see what they are doing or they dont care. They cant controll themselves. It is very sad and I realize how the jewish world has such a problem with this and I am so thankful that I dont have this problem. I might have it in other ways, I am human, but B”H not in this area cuz it is one of the most major problems and aveiros and issues out there. I have been put into such situations like these but B”H overcame them and didnt let my Yetzer Hora over come me. (wow, I sound like a rebbetzin lol) But really, being young, attractive, single and normal (LOL!) and men hitting on me all the time, I still manage to overcome my teiyvos and ignore it. So if I could do it, anyone can! Its not so hard. You just gotta ignore them. Dont aknowledge them. Know that you are worth something and they dont want you for you, and hashem will help you find your “other half” quicker if you do his ratzon.

  • June 13, 2007, 6:56 PM

    I know it is not easy, I am just saying that it is easier for me because I have a certain mindset. But anyway, I know there are diff pple out there, I just dont get how they think it is completely “mutar” to not be SN. I cant say it is totaly easy cuz I REALLY like guys, but since I am doing the right thing Hashem will help me find my hubby! Fast!!

  • June 13, 2007, 6:58 PM

    very great post!

  • June 13, 2007, 7:22 PM

    MW, please get used to the fact that not everyone views G-d as you do.

    You see the world in black and white. It’s just not that way.

    I see things different than you. G-d does not judge me based on what you, or anyone says he does.

    He views me differently, as he created each of us in a different mold.

    You obviously have no problem with S.N. ..so what IS your nisayon in life? Now lets hear you be so self righteous about what is difficult for you, personally.

  • June 13, 2007, 7:46 PM

    I know G-d judges everyone according to who they are and not other pple, I am sorry if you think I am judging. I am just digusted by the fact that pple dress a certain way and act a certain way on the outside but on the inside they do sick things. I despise fakers. I also understand perfectly that it is a nisayon for other pple, I just dont understand how they think that what they ared oing is correct. It might be hard for them and that is fine but just as long as you know it is wrong and are trying to become better is all that counts. If you slip up it is ok, only hashem judges and knows what level each person is on. If you know it is wrong but do it anyway-that is wrong. And if you think it is right, that is even worse. I dont see the world in black and white, but I just said that this topic of SN is more or less. Now everyones nisyonos on keeping it is a diff story. And as I wrote in an earlier post, my nisayon right now if you must know is having bitachon in Hashem that everything that happens in life is for the good and everything will turn out good at the end.-I recently went through something that was very difficult and I have to have bitachon that it was for the good, and I have to beleive it is good and it will be good in the future. (is that detailed enough for you?!?)

  • June 13, 2007, 7:57 PM

    Screw this I am going to get laid.

  • June 13, 2007, 8:02 PM

    “It might be hard for them and that is fine but just as long as you know it is wrong and are trying to become better is all that counts. If you slip up it is ok, only hashem judges and knows what level each person is on. If you know it is wrong but do it anyway-that is wrong. And if you think it is right, that is even worse.”

    On one hand you are saying it’s ok to slip but then reverse that?

  • June 13, 2007, 8:03 PM

    My sympathies with regards to the last line of your comment, M.W.

  • June 13, 2007, 8:06 PM

    Shalom Heshy,
    It’s 4:30am where I am and I will type.
    You have just ruined the modern orthodox community. You don’t let out the shomer secrets. The rule is that if you keep the Toirah for in front of mom and dad, you are good to go. By the way, I am working on the sequel to 40Year Old Virgin- that was a horror flick, not a comedy. I was in the theater connecting with Steve Carrel (if I spelled it wrong- I am Israeli and we can do that). Sand sounds right.
    Now I’m tired.
    Aliza, this is for you- I read your comment and I must say- for all of our sake- please talk to guys. I understand you are a Chozeret B’Tshuva, and mitzvot might seem cool. But don’t let the rabbis tell you you shouldn’t talk to guys- they are killing my chances with every girl. If I meet you at a party and we like each other, don’t give me your rabbi’s number. Rabbis aren’t into my type- they don’t like goatees. The whole Nevei for girls Chzeret B’Tshuva school is killing me. The rabbi there writes these books ‘Permission To Receive,’ Permission To Believe.’ All we want is for you rabbi to give Permission get some GMQN- Get Married Quickly Negiah. That is where you are so connected with Toirah and Halacha and you get engaged on the second date. You realize that the only way you can get your somesome is to get married. This is the reason for the 17 and 18 year old marriages. Sometimes they get married even though they had fun. They realize that they can’t hide from mom and dad, when they are still under their roof. Hence, DSN- Dad Support Negiah. That is, once your frum dad is so happy you are married, he realizes you have no college education. At this point, you have the ‘I have the wife’ excuse, ‘thou she is still in high school,’ and you get full day negiah, because you are both drop outs, getting a real job is forbidden/asur, and you are starting a phone-card business. This one bothers me because I the 30 year olds will never have DSN.
    Now I am tired.
    David Kilimnick

  • June 13, 2007, 8:13 PM

    Thanks Jacob, though its not that bad. Also, I am not saying it is ok to slip up but it happens and G-d understands and knows what level each person is on and judges accordingly!

  • June 13, 2007, 8:19 PM

    Aight, MW. As long as we are clear.

    Come on over to my place and check it out:


  • June 13, 2007, 8:24 PM

    Is bob able to walk better gained since the last time look just the same lets say for the newbies on hbo famous clip many years ago touch football like veterans who have been shot in the knee got the clip at least its a dipsy doo and was sooooo nervous so everytime he drinks its like well ok i was getting it so LOL! he may have just been thirsty we may never know?????!!!

  • June 13, 2007, 8:25 PM

    Woah, David.
    To be completely honest, it’s not that I don’t want to talk with guys, and I really don’t listen to what the people in this community say about it, either.

    Really, I just never get the opportunity to hang out with guys. I think I would, though, ,if someone asked. But for sure I wouldn’t touch, it’s just not something I’d be comfortable with anymore.

    It’s just the only guys I know now are all yeshiva bochrim,m and none of them are even my age, they’re all in high school lol. If I were to meet one my age or a little older, I’d have no problem hanging out, it’s just that I know I’d be scared if someone from school might see me or something. That’d be mortifying, and I have no idea if they’d let me stay in my seminary or not…

    And I have absolutely no problem whatsoever talking to guys online.
    That’s pretty much how I get my fix, actually. If I can’t do it in public, I may as well do it online.
    Hmm, that souunds kinda iffy, though…

  • June 13, 2007, 8:30 PM

    David Kilimnick:
    Your spelling and grammar is almost as poor as mine- but I crown you with one of the best comments in a long time. Do me a favor and comment on some other posts so I have something funny and interesting to read. We need some Israeli perspectives.

  • June 13, 2007, 8:31 PM

    Mookie & MW,
    in my experience in the yeshiva world there are many many folks who are completely SN. The thing is that this contingent is severely under-represented on the blogs because they don’t have internet. Even though i have left this crowd in order to go to school and get a job, the majority of them deserve a lot of credit for their genuine commitment to torah and all that comes with it.
    i would also agree that the key is to not let the situation come up in the first place, i.e. keep yichud laws. This is much easier in yeshivish communities, because there aren’t any girls in the beis medrash, and in general it is taboo to just shmooz with the opposite sex.

  • June 13, 2007, 8:32 PM

    Wow the iCE hORSE is back- mazel tov. We have been waiting a long time for your mildly offensive comments.

  • June 13, 2007, 8:41 PM

    Akuma-I agree!
    And Aliza, ur almost out of seminary so I would tell you not to care what pple think, but who we kiddin you are consitered an eligable bachlorett so you have to care what pple think! LOL!! All the guys I know are perfect age and I have no problem talking to them. Though I wouldnt touch not because I wouldnt feel comfortable (though I wouldnt) but because I am not allowed to. If it was allowed, I would prob hang out with them 24/7 cuz they are a ton of fun and much more interesting then girls!! LOL!!

  • June 13, 2007, 8:45 PM

    MW, the way I see it, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with talking to or hanging with guys. It’s just touching that’s the problem.

    And that’s why the second I’m out of seminary, I’m not gonna care anymore if people or see or whatever because it woin’t matter then. Now it’s out of fear of being kicked out of school, later it won’t be a problem because I’ll be going to uuniversity and won’t be in the BY community anymore. They’re just convenient for now, to help me out for education and Shabbat. I don’t have to be BY to be in a BY school, and it’s as simple as that 🙂

  • June 13, 2007, 9:09 PM

    MW…im not sure how you came up with which mitzvos are more important than others but ill leave that to you to sort out.
    Also not everything is black and white, this is really something you should try to understand. You come off (I am not saying you ARE but that u appear to be) very niave, self-righteous, narrow minded and judgemental. I am not saying that not being SN is right or wrong but that the BY system which I went through and still associate with basically teaches everything one way and is not necessarily the completely correct way.

  • June 13, 2007, 9:10 PM

    oh and mark i think u have the right idea 🙂

  • June 13, 2007, 9:10 PM

    I am shomer towards any woman, even concerning my fiancee, we are both shomer in public. But at home… we hold hands.

  • June 13, 2007, 9:19 PM

    BTW MW u sound like some guy making up all these posts…again just MY speculation…but i get that vibe from the way u speak

  • June 13, 2007, 9:19 PM

    Maze artist you are sooooo dirty, do you also talk dirty about how much chrain you will put on her gefilte fish and how much worrying she’s going to do when your gone at work.

  • June 13, 2007, 9:22 PM

    MW, its great that youre so determined and sure of yourself, but its obvious that youve never had to deal with this issue seriously. this is a good thing, but it would be a better thing to be grateful , and even better not to rub it in people’s faces -shows a real lack of maturity and understanding

  • June 13, 2007, 9:24 PM


    Ice Horse is back!

    Where the fuck have you been, Dude? Me and Hesh were just talking about you..You melted in the heat or something?

  • June 13, 2007, 9:27 PM

    Maze Artist, I read your article in the Jewish Mess.


    (Not like I understoo what the fuck you were talking about , but thats a different problem)

  • June 13, 2007, 9:30 PM

    M.W. is getting slaughtered by the veteran Bloggers..

    Lookie here girl, we Blogsters have alot of experience bashing and ripping so please watch your step!

  • June 13, 2007, 9:31 PM

    Jenn, you sound cool. Where’s your bloggy?

  • June 13, 2007, 9:32 PM

    How many of you remember the one hit wonder NCSY song about shomer negia?

    Because I’m shomer negia so leave me alone,
    if you want to reach out a touch me just pick up the phone,
    Stay on your side of the line,
    because my body is exclusively mine,
    no hugging or kissing no touching at all,
    if you need someone to lean on,
    just lean on the wall,

  • June 13, 2007, 9:34 PM

    Makes sence Aliza, cept hanging out and talking to guys is a problem cuz it may come to attraction, actually it ia likely. That is what happened to me. I became friends with a family friends son and we ended up really likeing eachother and he was too young to date and it was distracting him from his learning eventhough we never talked much but we thought about eachother a lot, it was too hard for him so now we dont talk anymore. I am letting him learn.-you see it might seem innocent at the begining but it may turn into something and that is when it gets tricky. So thats why there are all these rules as to it should not come to the level of trickiness. Got it??

  • June 13, 2007, 9:36 PM

    mmmm, M.W, young blood. Sounds interesting and good to me.

    Older women rock!

  • June 13, 2007, 9:41 PM

    Just because people are not shomer negia does not mean that they do not fear or love God. First of all there are countless ways to determine the halacha and countless ways that people love and fear God. Some people keep all the strictest interpretations while others take a more spiritual route.

    Secondly I think the person who wrote this did not mean to say that most people do not care about this aspect of the “law” in quotes. I think he wanted to open our minds as to the different levels of keeping negia as well as make us laugh our asses off at the same time- satire indeed- thought provoking and funny as hell.

    Many people would including myself wish we could keep negia, the simple truth is that for some it is too hard and we would rather start with improving things we can first, like being 100% shomer shabbos. How many times I have done the melocho of borer and had no idea I was doing it? This is chayev misa- while shomer negia is what?

    Furthermore, I do think that many keep 100% negia and this post was not aimed at them. I do however also think that many folks keep it in public and don’t divulge what really goes on in private. But this is like all other internal mitzvos, like keeping kosher, masturbating and cheating on your taxes.

    By the way, thanks to facebook I came across your blog.

  • June 13, 2007, 9:42 PM

    Nice comment, Anon.

  • June 13, 2007, 9:49 PM

    I know not everything is black and white but I think that when it comes to SN-it is more black and white on what is wrong and what is not. I am not naive, judgemental or uneducated, in fact I am educated cuz I learned from the Torah what is right and wrong on this topic.

    Jen, I am not a guy!! Ha ha! Its hystericle! If you would know me you would think the complete opposite! I am SUCH a girl!! Pink razor phone, pink camera, pink siddur, ect. But whatever, I still think its funny.

    Mookie-Its great how you guys think you know my type but in reality its the complete opposite. I did infact go through something big in this topic and if I would say it into detail you would think I have every right to say what I say. Whatever I went through I overcame and it was all “kosher”. I had a great opportunity in SN and I overcame it and did the right thing. I thought it would be really hard and it was for a bit, but it turned out to be not so terrible.

    Because I do have experience, I feel I have every right to say what I say. I am not naive or judgemental. If you knew me you would know that I am the complete opposite!

  • June 13, 2007, 9:49 PM

    Thank you Jacob, it just bothers me that all of orthodoxy is fixated on a black and white way of doing things- when of all people they should know that there are 20 different opinions for everything. Shulchan Orech, Mishna Brura, The Tur, Kitzur Sulchan Orech, Sulchan Orech Harav, and plenty more.

    Further more there are plenty of orthodox Jews that don’t believe everything that was forced into us during yeshiva. Then you have people who are violent in their beliefs- a more serious version of militant shomer negia and they would rather have their insular little club then attract more yidden into the fold. Hence we create communities of little divergence of opinion in public while the same people break all the laws at home- instead of creating an open forum like this to discuss the issue.

    Though it is mocking mostly, many of the posts on this blog bring up this exact issue, how the stereotyping and creating negativity chases people away rather then bringing them closer.

    It is sad to say but veahavta lereacha kamocha should be placed ahead of separate lines at the bakery and kosher water.

  • June 13, 2007, 9:50 PM

    “If you knew me you would know that I am the complete opposite!”

    But we don’t…

    You have to understand- you are the newbie.

  • June 13, 2007, 9:51 PM

    I am going to sleep so I will leave you all to bicker amongst yourselves- though checking these comments is getting addicting.

    Hey MW did you know that the color pink was banned by the charedim several months back. Pink is very untznius- are you of the SCT variety then?

  • June 13, 2007, 9:56 PM

    I hear you anon. I have no problem with diff types of pple. I am very open. Keep SN or dont keep it, I am not judging anyone who does or doesnt cuz I dont know them and I dont care. The only problem I had is with pple who hide it and are fake and pple who think that sleeping around and things like that ate NOT against halacha. I dont care if you do it or not just dont say that it is 100% mutar!

  • June 13, 2007, 9:59 PM

    Sweet and wet dreams, Hesh

  • June 13, 2007, 10:00 PM

    Mutar according to who that is the question? I would love it someone will look up some of the sources for this, since there are many instances of touching by great folks of our heritage without them being severely punished.

    You also just judged by saying mutar- some folks may not even go by yours and my halachic sources. Halacha is the largest gray area in Judaism after all.

    The problem I have is with folks who shidduch date while they are screwing around and I wrote something about this issue which occurs so much nowadays.

  • June 13, 2007, 10:00 PM

    What?? I never heard that? Anyway, I dont care. Who banned it. I dont follow any chasidus or “group” anyway so it doesnt affect me. LOL! But seriously, I dont think thats true cuz it makes no sence!

  • June 13, 2007, 10:04 PM

    I am trying to fugure out if we even keep the same Torah? If you must know, I spoke to a Rav about the a guy and he quoted in the Gemara that it is assur for 2 pple to go out on a even go on a date if it is not for marriagable purposes! That was in the Gemara, and if you learn or keep to what the Gemara says then what I am saying is true. Well its true anyway whether you listen or not! I have sources!

  • June 13, 2007, 10:08 PM

    MW is going off the wall!

    Baby, please chill out. This is a blog, and a satirical one at that.

    Hesh is having so much fun, please, let him go to bed now.

  • June 13, 2007, 10:24 PM

    I am chilled out, it seems that I am going crazy but really I am just writing whatever comes to my head. I am totaly calm.

  • June 13, 2007, 10:32 PM

    MW i realize now that my thinking you are a guy is because I found it hard to believe that anyone would really write like you do – it is just an immaturity. The LOL!!! all the exclamation points etc seemed very put on like a guy trying to sound like a very ditzy girl. The way you write is just a bit childish…not trying to offend just pointing out the facts. Also you really seem to THINK you know halacha inside out but i do get the feeling you dont really know the half of it and are just regurgitating everything we were preached about in BY.
    Oh and this is a humor blog stop taking it so literally and please as jacob said CHILL

    Anon- Welcome- your posts were really on target…and so well thought out and well written please dontt be a stranger to these walls!

  • June 13, 2007, 10:34 PM

    Oh and Jacob…coming from u I am really flattered with the “you sound cool”! Unfortunately I dont have a blog eventhough I have much to say…its a combo of laziness & poor writing ability

  • June 13, 2007, 10:43 PM

    If you would only know how sarcastic I am you would not be telling me that. I hate writing things instead of saying them because you dont know the expressions the other person is using and you cant really tell what exactly the person is trying to say. I seem like I am mad but really I am laughing my head off. I am having so much fun with this, I am so not serious. Also, the whole thing with the LOL and exclamation points…I am just trying to get across that I think its funny and harmless. It is hard to show experession and that is some sort of showing it.

  • June 13, 2007, 10:46 PM

    I guess chicks fighting is almost as good a getting laid.

  • June 13, 2007, 10:53 PM

    Dude, go to sleep! LOL!-wait or maybe I should write ha ha cuz apparently it is too immature to write LOL. How else should I express that I am laughing? (oh, and I am laughing right now, so ha ha!)

  • June 14, 2007, 1:19 AM

    MW // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06 I dont mean to sound all high ‘n mighty or fake but I am one of those who fear and love hashem all at the same time and know I am being watched at all times, but I deffinatly have nisronos and am constantly being tested.

    BUT you do want to sound high and mighty. You are NOT a tzadik. Even the tzaddik falls
    seven times and gets up.

    MW // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06 I have been put into such situations like these but B”H overcame them and didnt let my Yetzer Hora over come me. (wow, I sound like a rebbetzin lol)

    A rebetzin is NOT a rabbi and many people have the false notion that a rebetzin is a very learned person. In many cases that’s not the reality.

    MW // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06 I know G-d judges everyone according to who they are and not other pple, I am sorry if you think I am judging

    You ARE judging other Jews.

    MW // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06 I know not everything is black and white but I think that when it comes to SN-it is more black and white on what is wrong and what is not. I am not naive, judgemental or uneducated, in fact I am educated cuz I learned from the Torah what is right and wrong on this topic.

    You are very naive, judgemental and uneducated. You have no clue about life.

    MW // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06 Because I do have experience, I feel I have every right to say what I say. I am not naive or judgemental. If you knew me you would know that I am the complete opposite!

    You are what my grandfather called a dog that did not get hit by a stone. A dog that says at home and is sheltered does not get a real grasp of how things are in the real world. He gets free food, free accomodation and has a sheltered life. The street smart doggie however fights with many issues and facts in the real world, and might also get kicked and have stones thrown at him too. People who have communicated with you on this blog are people who have lived and learned from life. You are a young immature child and has NO clue about life.

    Go on with with your sheltered life, happy inbreeding and hopefully you won’t mix into the mainstream gene pool cause people like you only discriminate on fellow Jews.

  • June 14, 2007, 5:24 AM

    Even before work I had to check and yes the ladies are still fighting. I can imagine a bunch of skirt wearing girls pulling at each others hair and screaming yiddish obscenities at one another.

    I was thinking about some of these comments and here is what I have to say. Shomer Negia is like weed. Some folks say you will regret it when your older and its really bad for you, while others say that makes no difference and its fine. Others try and scientifically prove its wrongness by saying- when you get married, or when you get emphysema and your brain cells die you will regret it. While others just say- think about the law, both acts are illegal plain and simple.

    I have met both types of folks, folks who deeplt regretted the acts they did before marriage- but not until they saw how good marriage was. And then I know married folks who attribute their great married sex life to the fact they knew what the G-spot was.

    Oh and my roommate says that Shomer negia is mentioned in the Rambam, I thought we ashkenazim go according to the Shulchan Aruch

  • June 14, 2007, 7:22 AM

    Dont bash me and say I am judgemental when everything you just wrote is judging me. You dont know who I am and making a statement like that is completely judgmental. Also, what exactly did I say that is “judging other jews”??Anyhoo, we will straighten this all out later, I gotta go to work. Toodles!

  • June 14, 2007, 7:43 AM

    frumbutwithit // Jun 14th 2007 at 9:20 p06
    Even before work I had to check and yes the ladies are still fighting. I can imagine a bunch of skirt wearing girls pulling at each others hair and screaming yiddish obscenities at one another.

    I thought you would rather want a wet t-shirt concert combined with mud fighting, lol. 😀

    I keep glatt kosher negiah, I check the lungs of the person I go on a shidduch with, lol. 😛

  • June 14, 2007, 7:52 AM

    Oh I forgot, I fall under SCT- Shomer cock tease. 🙂

    Hehs, you forgot to mention that SCTs also wear stilettos besides the hooker boots.

  • June 14, 2007, 7:58 AM

    MW // Jun 14th 2007 at 9:20 p06
    Dont bash me and say I am judgemental when everything you just wrote is judging me. You dont know who I am and making a statement like that is completely judgmental.

    Uh huh, whatever!!!

  • June 14, 2007, 8:12 AM

    jennthejewess // Jun 14th 2007 at 9:20 p06

    Firstly Rebel – You are my hero!!! Everything I wanted to say, you put into to words and so coherently! This kid has no clue about life


    MW // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06 I have been put into such situations like these but B”H overcame them and didnt let my Yetzer Hora over come me. (wow, I sound like a rebbetzin lol)

    Your little “flirtation” with your friends bro or your bros friend is NOT considered experience! So you flirted (or what you think is flirted) a bit maybe even spoke on the phone and considered him your BF for a couple days…This is not experience and does not give you the right to preach and speak like you have experience.

    BTW who the heck has a pink siddur? Again why its so hard to believe your a girl
    And “But really, being young, attractive, single and normal (LOL!) and men hitting on me all the time” Just riddle me this -why is such a nice frum aidel girl in places where men are constantly hitting on her? Men esp frum men generally hit on ppl they they get the vibe that are interested….maybe you give off that impression? This whole thing literally makes no sense, but the crux of the issue i think is this….

    MW // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06

    I am chilled out, it seems that I am going crazy but really I am just writing whatever comes to my head. I am totaly calm.

    Listen some of us really enjoy the blog and commenting maybe you should try to think for a min before you type so you dont just spew whatever comes to your head- it doesnt always make sense and is not necessarily correct. Maybe Im the only one who thinks this but its mad annoying.

    oh and FYI you seriously contradict yourself every other post

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

  • June 14, 2007, 8:30 AM

    i just posted a long post…what does i mean waiting to be moderated?

  • June 14, 2007, 9:21 AM

    MW – this is why this is not the place for a psot seminary naive
    Good Luck

  • June 14, 2007, 10:49 AM


    I like the comparison to weed; it kind of makes sense (if you are stoned). This thread is just an excellent display for showcasing the dichotomy amongst young ortho jews.

    Is the world black and white? Is Negiah always wrong? Is the way Negiah is enforced and practiced today always the way it was?

    Does it matter that the laws of Negiah were promulgated in an era where women in general and sex in particular were feared and misunderstood? What is the real story with the “Bnos Yisrael?”

    Is it really true that all guy/girl interaction is about sex?

    I have always found the answer to that last one quite informative. The super frummies, the one who have hardly had any contact with the opposite sex and the intense BT’s, they are the ones saying in agreement with the you-only-talk-to-girls-for-sex idea. It is the rest of us, the non-fundamentalists who exist, not on either end of the spectrum or on either pole–but who muddle through and try to make sense of and maintain fidelity to a stream of Judaism that, in the modern world, has a lot to answer.

    So yes, NM, maybe the things you were taught are not as simple as you think them to be

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