I have decided that “Frum But With It” merely means that you are “Modern Orthodox machmir” but too chicken to actually refer to yourself as anything close to Modern Orthodox. Then again in the frum world it may just mean that you are modern orhodox but happen to wear a black velvet yarmulke, since so much depends on this very important external feature. It need not matter if you have the classic MO features such as going to movies, concerts and watching television. All that matters in order to retain your frum but with it label is that accessory known as black velvet. The second you don that suede, black knit or possibly white knit if your really daring- you descend is status from “frum but with it” to that dreaded modern orthodox.
I know its dreaded within the black velvet community because whenever they want to tell you someone is not as religious as them they spit in disgust as they say “she is modern” or “you know the modern type” as if they were just throwing everyone without the traditional garb into one big group and referring to them as modern.
Don’t get me wrong the modern folks do exactly the same thing. They also judge purely on externals. They look at the black velvet yarmulke as the symbol of the frummy- which in itself is a derogatory term. It is basically saying just because they wear a black velvet yarmulke they are uncultured, not worldly and uneducated. This is simply not the case, and just because someone wants to don the penguin outfit doesn’t mean anything. In fact although the stereotypes tend to be true- although with the invention of blogs- we are finding out it may not necessarily be. In the days of yore- it was a good stereotype, most of those who wore the garb were trying to emanate those of the shtetl in Europe and they tended to be uncultured in the secular sense- though very knowledgeable in the torah sense. These days neither is necessarily true. Folks who wear black and white and the more modern folks are neither more suspect to be smarter in torah or secular matters. It simply doest hold true today- although the ages old stereotype shines through and everyone in the respective communities likes to think so.
My goal of this week to is try and show how stupid it is to judge solely on the yarmulke- but unfortunately it is what people do. The problems this creates are endless including many broken shidduchim and falsely made shidduchim. Someone who is not right for a girl can just as easily put on a black velvet yarmulke and by that simple action which takes no effort- he can shatter many lives- as well as the girl, shadchun, family, etc… that automatically rejects any boys that chose not to wear a black velvet yarmulke- as well as yeshivas that force this doctrine on to bochrim, I happened to attnd Chofetz Chaim and was in a black hat yeshiva yet I was able to wear any yarmulke I chose, maybe I am forever biased- but it is still stupidity.
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those guys who lean on their yarmulke status are dangerous, and those who judge based only on it are dangerous too.
Nice idea to have a series on the velvet yarmulke. It has indeed become more of a cultural identifier then the hat ever was (how many people wear a hat outside of shul/yeshiva during the week anyhow). I disagree with your equating the Frum but with it group with the MO machmirs though. The Frum but with it guys are those that went to a certain type of yeshiva but weren’t as serious either as learners or otherwise as the frum but not with it people for the most part. Whereas the MO machmir types went to other types of yeshivas where they WERE the serious learners. Therefore both these two types have fundamentally different personality types. Examine the average guy in washington heights versus Flatbush to investigate further. These differences are definitely apparent in their differing reasons for wearing velvet yarmulkes. A frum but with it types will wear a velvet yarmulke because thats what he grew up wearing and thats the culture he identifies with. A modern orthodox type will begin to Don the velvet as a sort of training wheels before putting on the hat, he will wear it not to identify himself with more chareidi elements necesarily but rather to show the world that he is very serious about his yiddishkeit.
RE Mrs Chicago Chic
Everyone judges- I guess my goal will be to show how far the judging has gone and try to imfluence some to possibly see how dumb it is in the first place. I will do this by turning the tables and showing it from a different viewpoint- mainly the satirical and ironic way.
RE: Noname- I did enjoy your comment and especially the training wheels for the hat- very clever- I may have to use that one sometime. You speak some truth indeed
Its Charedism not Judaism, call it what it is.
Judging people by their kippa and clothes, practicing obscure customs of pagan origin, coming with new chumrot, stringencies every week. Sorry but I think I’ll pass.
There are many stark differences between “MO machmir” and “frumbutwithit”. First off MOmachmir seems to be a much more sincere form of frumkeit. Most of them were born modern went to hanc etc grew up talking to girls watching tv reading newspapers listening to goyish tunes but they chose to grow closer to hashem despite the fact that they are modern. Modernorthodoxmachmir even extends to YU yeshivish. Frumbutwithit people are usually the typical yeshiva guy that was raised in a yeshivish background, still follows halacha davens daily doesn’t fuck around with girls doesn’t curse wears jeans listens to tasteful goyish music such as billy joel phish or dream theater follows sports and television pretends to read the newspaper uses a perfect hybrid of yeshivish talk and good vocab learns torah and is quite knowledgable in halacha and of course dons the velvet. The thing here is that the part about being withit is a negative attribute of his existence. The two are nothing alike, sorry.
Hold up…
Ice horse is actually intelligible???
Wow! I can understand what he saying!
Yay for laying off the Olde English 40 ounce malt liquer.
Jacob,
Seperate anguish fear all well to here killing alice huricane to fold in the night forever to heaven street slay the girl of bloody flesh to decapitate the pissing razors of feasting in the summer of life! Understand you arrogant asshole???
Did I hear you mention Dream Theater Mr. Ice Horse?Either you are a musician or a music junky.
I’m a frum music junky. But despite the fact that I’m frum, I still like to think that I’m “withit”. Yes, my kippah is velvet.
oh how i long to be frum
Ice horse,
Nope.
What about frum but funky?
Tis the truth- email me some of your thoughts and maybe I can write about it- it happens to be that funky is relative as are those who think they are “with it” my ideas of with it are totally different from the masses amounts of folks who identify with the “frum but with it” label
Having missed the Judaism train after Bar Mitzvah, 30 years ago and having hopped back on it I place high value in all of you to show me the path back. Thank you for what you offer.
Chabad, please, just go there…no dont do it to become Lubavitch, they’ll get you on the derech though, im not a Chabadnick, but you sound like you need a Rov to talk to, also, any questions you have, get a live chat account on askmoses.com,
you’ll do it dont worry man
I hope you are joking.
what are you if were sued when not in yeshiva but wear black hat on shabbos on during week beside for shacris but were vevelt in school
Keep in mind that also these two groups will not send their kids to the same camps and schools.
An MO machmir would send his kids to MO single-sex high schools such as Bruriah, Central, SKA, DRS, MTA and TABC and encourage them to go to YU/Stern if they could afford it. Some will even go to co-ed camps and form their little frummy cliques there.
From what Ive seen, the “frum but with it” will send their kids to yeshiva ketanas and bais yaakov schools because they still identify with those movements. Their kids will ONLY go to all-girls and all-boys camps (e.g. Sternberg, Raniniu, Magen Av, etc.) For college, unless if they are extremely intellectual, most will either go to Touro, Landers, or Queens. They do not encourage YU/Stern – even if they could technically afford it.
You need an editor.
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