So I was talking with a Rebetzin friend tonight and like all people we started talking about sex. Not how my friends and I would speak, but more of how she taught her kids about the mikvah, why they couldn’t date at 15 and about sexual topics in a way that I wish more frum people would do. We got to talking and I mentioned that I personally know of very few people my age (25) who are still virgins. I am talking about guys and girls I will have you know. It just seems that though most of my friends are what someone would call “frum”, they were at one point or still are sexually active. Is this normal? Are me and my friends just a bunch of nutjobs, or within the frum community are most singles sexually active. Let me say further that we are not part of the “modern singles” community of the Upper Westside. These are mostly folks that learn b’chavrusa every day, daven with a minyan and eat 100% kosher. We could call them 612 mitzvahdox as I have coined in a previous post.
While I know this is somewhat common in the frum community especially after folks get engaged, I have a serious problem and this is the-venting portion of the pos- with guys and girls who go out on shidduch dates with the tachlis of getting married while they are not shomer negia. I hink this is misleading and wrong. I think that for someone to be in the condition of shidduch dating they must have sworn off sex and other activities for a good enough portion of time to consider them “rusty” it boggles my mind how folks can mislead contless people who think they are frum and willing to settle down when just a few weeks ago they were shtupping random girls they met at shull, an oneg, or in a bar.
Not Cool people!!
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{ 30 comments… read them below or add one }
I don’t know how many people are avid dater and ’shtuppers’ as you put it. This is the main reason I don’t ’shidduch’ date. I’m too busy trying to figure out my life. I don’t think it’s fair to trick some guy, shadchan, whoever. But many people have told me that I should still date. I agree with you. There are bigger issues here….and they will surface. trust me. hiding behind sex, guilt for masturbation, guilt for touching, all that….it doesn’t solve anything. The best way to avoid sex is to not hang out alone AT ALL with someone who is of any remote attraction/opposit sex….don’t put yourself in that situation.
I agree with the Lovely Lady.Forget the issues,what about just being fair to the other person?
Would you like to hang out with a girl and get to know her and then discover that her name is Rochel Leah and that she has 5 kids….And an ex-husband in Kollel that she still needs to support…
Same thing,you looking to get it on for life when you still getting in on every Sat night?
I have to say, that its a sketchy world out there. Everyone wants their cake and to eat it too. But from what I’ve seen many people are sexually active, and as I found out, I kind of had an identity crisis. Most people are just naive. That’s not to say that a lot of people are actually “moral”, but the point is once you get a boulder rolling, it’s pretty hard to stop, and if you do, it pretty much did a heck of a lot of damage already, and its too late.
I cant speak for the women, but at this stage in our lives, us guys can get super horny yet still believe in the one above and try and do as much good to make up for the bad.. And if your if your gonna try and avoid woman, tis merely mpossible if your not living in a cave, which obviously makes one even more hornier. So, does that mean they cant shidduch date and find a permenent sex partner and wife, im not sure how they dont coincide with one anbother.
I am 24 and a virgin and not sexually active at all. I am still learning in Yeshiva. All my friends are also virgins and do not involve themselves with members of the opposite sex. I would like to believe that the majority of the frum(Yeshivish/haredi) world is like this and im going to have dan le Kaf Zchus on most people. I have heard about what your saying and it is very worrying. If i could ask you and all your readers for advice. For someone entering shiduch dating what would you recomend to look for as tell tale signs that the girl is not sincere and is sexually active. I think its important to know and could potentially save somebody from alot of pain and embarresment.
You know I am not so expereinced to able to to tell that Naive. I can tell you this- if you are dating seriously, I would ask the person, if they care about you they will be honest. Its also good to make sure they have been tested for STD’s- its much worse for the guy to get tested- they stick this long needle swab into your pecker- not cool.
Apparantly since in the haredi and yeshivish world- they dont tend to get much secular influence- one of the biggest issues is that members who do decide to fool around tend to jump right to sex, since they havent been inundated with all the foreplay scenes that many of us “modern” folk have seen.
BTW,Frum…I’m part Syrian and apparently the custom in the ommnuity is to check for that kind of shit…
So my Mesader kiddushin made me and my wife go get a blood test to check for HIV and stuff.I didnt mind as I always wondered if i picked up any nasty shawg while sowing them wild oats
Kudos to the Syrian community. I did datea Syrian chick once but due to my non-intrenchment I have never been able to make fun of them yet. Maybe you can enlighten me with the ways they judge.
I just stumbled upon your blog an hour ago and have been reading posts non-stop. This one, though, I feel like I can’t leave without a comment.
I’m a BT, but went to a BY HS and still define myself as very much BY except for a few minor things (like socks, skirt length, etc). At gatherings, I would still definitely dress the part.
Anyway, I never knew of a whole category of people like this until a good friend of mine shared a story which I will tell you here.
This girl is also a BT, but became religious much younger, went to the same HS as I did and stayed a lot more innocent. So she was interning at this largely-frum company in Manhattan, when she found herself attracted to this frum married guy (I have no idea which kind according to your label but frum enough for an innocent BY girl). After the initial crush stage (and realizing that he was clearly interested), she adn him started meeting in the copy room for pretty frequent make-out sessions. Now, this girl’s cubicle is right next to his cubicle, so she hears every phone call he’s making to his wife, calling her all these sweet things, asking about her day, etc. She really likes him, knows that she wants to stop, knows that the guy is an SOB but can’t do anything about it. At some point, after several months of this, he calls her at home at about 10:30-11 pm and says that he’s outside her door and needs to talk, can he come in? She heard the urgency in his voice, cared for him and let him in. He was drunk, and after a steamy make out session on her landlady’s couch, he started taking off her clothes. It was then that she realized what was about to happen and how stuck she was. Luckily for her, he was not SOB enough to force it. This whole episode was mostly a nightmare for her: she tried to end it several times throughout, only to come back again and again to the same square 1 because she really liked the guy and also because he really didnt give in easily.
My point is this: sometimes, girls (and I can speak only for girls here) when they have a BY upbringing even with all the college, not-frum family, etc. backgrounds are very innocent how to develop a relationship first and how to react to a guy like this. In this case, his 612 mitvot did not only affect two unmarried ppl, but also his wife and family, and as much as a person can make these decisions by himself/herself and for themselves, to involve other potentially non-consenting adults is more than just “skipping a mitzva.”
WOW is all I can say and thank you for a truly captivating story. Thanks for reading and commenting- hopefully this will stir some readers into commenting some more on this probably frequent though unfortunate situation.
of course i know about this, one of my best friends is shtupping a lubavitch girl in NY every night, yet the girl goes on a couple shidduch dates with different guys every week, and since she seems like a regular frum girl, her dates dont know that she is sexually active on the side. The problem I have with this is not because she’s having premarital sex; I’m sure even the frummest girls have a libido. The problem is that shes misleading all these guys, and the guy she eventually marries will probably never know what a mattress she really was.
Sad but true eh, its a problem with folks who end up in drunken situations which they shouldnt be. I guess I am lucky not to have that tayva, I understand how hard it can be.
well let me ask about this lubavitch girl…….is she the regular ”chassidish” lubavitcher girl? or the modern one that dates trimmed lubavitcher guys?
(who are probably also sexually active……..)
usually u can very easily figure out by asking the right Q to the girl and her ”close entourage” what her life is like and her daily schedule…….a girl hanging out too much etc etc can give very CLEAR clues on her sexual sitch’ u just have to be a lil’ smart which is not the case for many innocent people who are clueless…………
sorry for rehashing a very old post…
but i was wondering, does anyone have any advice on how to ask your fiance to get tested for STDs? i think this would go over really, really, badly in the yeshivish community. my ex-fiance for one would have certainly flipped out, but thank goodness we didn’t get married.
Wow. G-d didn’t want me to post my comment. It just evaporated into thin air. Better left unsaid. Just addressing UG, you can tell your fiance that your Rav recommended it, if you have one. Or if that’s not your niche, get yourself tested first and share your results.
STDs are a health issue that I would hope, like any other health issue, would be discussed before engagement. I can understand that going to get tested together would be labeling yourself the dancing spawn of someone else’s satan, in some communities; that’s what Planned Parenthood and road trips are for. Or hopstop, if you don’t drive.
This conversation shouldn’t be any more dramatic than one to make sure you’re not somehow related to each other (I have met mothers who don’t leave their children’s hospital bedsides and wouldn’t you know it, they married their cousins. It’s heartbreaking, and there’s no excuse for it, in this day and age. It’s not fair to the children who grow up inside hospitals, to say the very least. [/rant]
Urban Gypsy its good to rehash old posts because- first off my ideals have changed and second off the conversation is always ongoing to feel free to rehash.
On that note- during my short engagement- my ex asked me to get tested upon realizing that was uh…a little more experienced then she.
I obliged and am very happy I did so…it was fun going to the free clinic in “da hood” the pin in my prick sucked- but you gotta do what you gotta do
Mendy seems to think that slutty girls tend to date guy with trimmed beards that are also slutty. Following this train of thought, we should assume that bikers and Jihadists are tzadikkim because of their beards, and anyone else is a pervert.
What’s next, is anyone with a beard promised to have 72 virgins after they die?
they put a pin down there to test guys?! Yikes. When I got a physical for the first time in a while, they ran those tests, too, ’cause I’m adult age. Blood was drawn from my arm; that’s it. Just thinking about that hurts!
wow. I think a you can always ask your shadchan to:
a) ask for you if your date is a virgin;
b) ask the date to check for STDs;
i think shadchanim are there to handle embarassing issues.
As for the way to understand if the date is sexually active, I would always look at the skin – if it has acnes and stuff it must be hormones burning inside. If the guy who claims to learn in the yeshiva non-stop and be a virgin, has a perfect velvet clear skin he is either unique or lying.
Baby Mama: As someone who attended medical school, I’d just like to let you know that there is virtually zero correlation between the presence of sexually transmitted diseases and acne in the same individual. You really don’t think that every person who has a dermatological condition got the clap from a loose shidduch, right?
And there is nothing wrong – frum or not – with asking your potential mate to get a complete STD workup, as there are a few conditions that can be spread through means other than genitalia or sexual fluids. Even if it’s a little embarrassing to broach a sensitive topic during the throes of a frummy romance, it’s better than getting chlamydia during your honeymoon in Caesarea.
Nameless Faceless:
AS someone who hopes that you also attended elementary school, I’d just like you to reread my comment and notice that I actually pointed out the correlation between acnes and sexual activity, not STD.
Oh, babymama, why couldn’t you have just left well enough alone? In your haste to bash me, you actually further prove your ignorance on this topic.
Now, when I first read your comment, I assumed there was no way you could possibly be advocating a link of causation between acne and sexual activity in post-pubescent individuals. As you so charmingly pointed out, I misread your stance; you’re not talking about the presence of STDs in an acne-ridden adult, but the idea that one is able to parse who is sexually active simply by glancing at their pores.
This is way dumber than what I was originally giving you credit for.
Using your logic, every sexually active person on the planet must have acne/blemishes. I don’t know how old you are, but let’s say you are old enough and in whatever you decide is the proper relationship type and you are having sex. Do you have acne? Think of your married friends, of your parents (oh, yeah, parents do it too), older siblings, movie stars, Ali at the schwarma stand on the corner — presumably, they are all knocking boots. According to you, they must all suffer from horrific cases of acne.
Sexual activity plays no role in the causation of acne and therefore, acne cannot be modified by increasing or decreasing one’s sexual activity.
I really dislike when people perpetuate the passage of inaccurate information.
Nameless Faceless-You just make yourself look less intelligent by debating a dumb comment……….but by all means if both you and babymama want to test that whole sex-acne correlation thingie together feel free
Damn spam filter………..
I have clear skin and haven’t gotten laid in 6 years
hahahahaha
See, Hesh, all this time I thought you just moisturized….
A) Itzik (the guy at the shwarma stand) is probably getting more action than all other people on the planet put together. (well i really like shwaarma and im low on cash at the moment, i figure other people mut be in the same situation in this economic crisis.)
B) If you have a little experience in this area you know that when you speak to the mesader kdushin or whomever about the ketubah you WILL be discussing the kallahs sexual past (in painfully decriptive detail in some cases)
THEREFORE i think it only fair that following (or proceeeding) that horrible (or boring) meeting, a discussion about the chossons previous activity should be had.
C) Fun fact : According to a stat i just read from the rather reliable Indiana U, “1 in 4 people feel that premarital sex is morally wrong.”
I was super shocked to read that, I always assumed that the majority of people believed in the sanctity of marriage. I kind of figured it was more the ‘it feels good to be bad’ principle.
Clearly the ‘yeshiva rebel’ voice in me is louder than i realized.
1) Well if I call myself babymama, that probably means, that I know something about sex, or how would I get the baby??? (or should I wish you Merry Christmas???)
2) I meant to say that if guys don’t have sex for a long time, they have bad skin. However, if you please reread my comment again, I didn’t claim it universal truth that if the skin is pure he must be humping someone. I admitted that there are unique guys (like the author of this blog =) who don’t get laid in years and still have clear skin.
Unfortunately I can’t provide references and quotations from reliable sources to prove my point of view, itwas just my humble experience.